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VM's wont install

Posted: 28. Sep 2020, 00:14
by sThorn
Hello,
I'v been trying to install defferent VM's on my VirtualBox (Version 6.1.12 r139181 (Qt5.6.2)).

I'v used VirtualBox earlier in the past on another host with no problem, now the installer never seems to finnish.
On fedora i get this error:

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The following was filed automatically by anaconda:
anaconda 32.24.7 exception report
Traceback (most recent call first):
  File "/usr/lib/python3.8/site-packages/dasbus/client/handler.py", line 496, in _handle_method_error
    raise exception from None
  File "/usr/lib/python3.8/site-packages/dasbus/client/handler.py", line 474, in _get_method_reply
    return self._handle_method_error(error)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.8/site-packages/dasbus/client/handler.py", line 442, in _call_method
    return self._get_method_reply(
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/modules/common/task/__init__.py", line 46, in sync_run_task
    task_proxy.Finish()
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/installation_tasks.py", line 521, in run_task
    sync_run_task(self._task_proxy)
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/installation_tasks.py", line 490, in start
    self.run_task()
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/installation_tasks.py", line 311, in start
    item.start()
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/installation_tasks.py", line 311, in start
    item.start()
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/installation_tasks.py", line 311, in start
    item.start()
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/installation.py", line 382, in run_installation
    queue.start()
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/threading.py", line 870, in run
    self._target(*self._args, **self._kwargs)
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/threading.py", line 280, in run
    threading.Thread.run(self)
dasbus.error.DBusError: mount failed: 32
I'v tried Ubuntu but the error i get there does not show as much.
I was not able to find any relative information about this.
I can run Docker on the same machine with no problem, I dont have Docker and VirtualBox running at the same time.

I have all logs from the fedora-install saved:

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-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel     2B Sep 27 23:54 version
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel    64B Sep 27 23:54 uuid
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel     8B Sep 27 23:54 type
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel    10B Sep 27 23:54 time
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel   505K Sep 27 23:54 syslog
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel   135K Sep 27 23:54 storage.log
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel    30B Sep 27 23:54 release
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel    40B Sep 27 23:54 reason
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel   9.8K Sep 27 23:54 program.log
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel     6B Sep 27 23:54 product
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel     7B Sep 27 23:54 pkg_version
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel     1B Sep 27 23:54 pkg_release
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel     8B Sep 27 23:54 pkg_name
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel     1B Sep 27 23:54 pkg_epoch
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel     6B Sep 27 23:54 pkg_arch
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel   9.8K Sep 27 23:54 packaging.log
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel    16B Sep 27 23:54 package
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel    17B Sep 27 23:54 os_release
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel   691B Sep 27 23:54 os_info
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel   1.6K Sep 27 23:54 nmcli_dev_list
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel   194K Sep 27 23:54 lvm.log
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel   2.4K Sep 27 23:54 lsblk_output
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel    24K Sep 27 23:54 lorax-packages.log
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel    10B Sep 27 23:54 last_occurrence
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel    21B Sep 27 23:54 kernel
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel     9B Sep 27 23:54 hostname
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel    51B Sep 27 23:54 hawkey.log
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel     8B Sep 27 23:54 hashmarkername
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel    14B Sep 27 23:54 executable
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel   637B Sep 27 23:54 environ
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel    64B Sep 27 23:54 duphash
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel   1.3K Sep 27 23:54 dnf.librepo.log
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel   1.6K Sep 27 23:54 description
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel   2.9K Sep 27 23:54 dbus.log
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel     8B Sep 27 23:54 component
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel    87B Sep 27 23:54 cmdline_file
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel    32B Sep 27 23:54 cmdline
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel   1.5K Sep 27 23:54 backtrace
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel     6B Sep 27 23:54 architecture
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel     6B Sep 27 23:54 analyzer
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel    22K Sep 27 23:54 anaconda.log
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel   1.2M Sep 27 23:54 anaconda-tb
-rwxrwxr-x+ 1 root  wheel    16B Sep 27 23:54 addons
What should I do next?
What of these file relevant?
Is there a debug-vm i can try to spin up?

Br Sebastian

Re: VM's wont install

Posted: 28. Sep 2020, 00:33
by sThorn
I found that this file might include some interesting things.

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...
...
...
INFO:program:Running... udevadm settle --timeout=300
DEBUG:program:Return code: 0
DEBUG:blivet:           XFS.setup: device: /dev/mapper/fedora-root ; type: xfs ; status: False ;
INFO:program:Running... udevadm settle --timeout=300
DEBUG:program:Return code: 0
INFO:program:Running... mount -t xfs -o defaults /dev/mapper/fedora-root /mnt/sysimage
INFO:program:stderr:
INFO:program:b"mount: /mnt/sysimage: unknown filesystem type 'xfs'."
DEBUG:program:Return code: 32
INFO:anaconda.threading:Thread Failed: AnaTaskThread-MountFilesystemsTask-1 (140455994869504)
ERROR:anaconda.modules.common.task.task:Thread AnaTaskThread-MountFilesystemsTask-1 has failed: Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/threading.py", line 280, in run
    threading.Thread.run(self)
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/threading.py", line 870, in run
    self._target(*self._args, **self._kwargs)
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/modules/common/task/task.py", line 95, in _task_run_callback
    self._set_result(self.run())
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/modules/storage/installation.py", line 160, in run
    self._storage.mount_filesystems()
  File "/usr/lib/python3.8/site-packages/blivet/threads.py", line 53, in run_with_lock
    return m(*args, **kwargs)
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/storage/osinstall.py", line 432, in mount_filesystems
    self.fsset.mount_filesystems(root_path=root_path)
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/storage/fsset.py", line 554, in mount_filesystems
    device.format.setup(
  File "/usr/lib/python3.8/site-packages/blivet/threads.py", line 53, in run_with_lock
    return m(*args, **kwargs)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.8/site-packages/blivet/formats/__init__.py", line 610, in setup
    self._setup(**kwargs)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.8/site-packages/blivet/threads.py", line 53, in run_with_lock
    return m(*args, **kwargs)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.8/site-packages/blivet/formats/fs.py", line 568, in _setup
    self._mount.do_task(chrooted_mountpoint, options=options)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.8/site-packages/blivet/tasks/fsmount.py", line 125, in do_task
    raise FSError("mount failed: %s" % rc)
blivet.errors.FSError: mount failed: 32

INFO:anaconda.threading:Thread Done: AnaTaskThread-MountFilesystemsTask-1 (140455994869504)
WARNING:dasbus.server.handler:The call org.fedoraproject.Anaconda.Task.Finish has failed with an exception:
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/lib/python3.8/site-packages/dasbus/server/handler.py", line 409, in _method_callback
    result = self._handle_call(
  File "/usr/lib/python3.8/site-packages/dasbus/server/handler.py", line 234, in _handle_call
    return handler(*parameters)
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/modules/common/task/task_interface.py", line 114, in Finish
    self.implementation.finish()
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/modules/common/task/task.py", line 133, in finish
    threadMgr.raise_if_error(self._thread_name)
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/threading.py", line 171, in raise_if_error
    raise exc_info[0](exc_info[1]).with_traceback(exc_info[2])
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/threading.py", line 280, in run
    threading.Thread.run(self)
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/threading.py", line 870, in run
    self._target(*self._args, **self._kwargs)
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/modules/common/task/task.py", line 95, in _task_run_callback
    self._set_result(self.run())
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/modules/storage/installation.py", line 160, in run
    self._storage.mount_filesystems()
  File "/usr/lib/python3.8/site-packages/blivet/threads.py", line 53, in run_with_lock
    return m(*args, **kwargs)
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/storage/osinstall.py", line 432, in mount_filesystems
    self.fsset.mount_filesystems(root_path=root_path)
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages/pyanaconda/storage/fsset.py", line 554, in mount_filesystems
    device.format.setup(
  File "/usr/lib/python3.8/site-packages/blivet/threads.py", line 53, in run_with_lock
    return m(*args, **kwargs)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.8/site-packages/blivet/formats/__init__.py", line 610, in setup
    self._setup(**kwargs)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.8/site-packages/blivet/threads.py", line 53, in run_with_lock
    return m(*args, **kwargs)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.8/site-packages/blivet/formats/fs.py", line 568, in _setup
    self._mount.do_task(chrooted_mountpoint, options=options)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.8/site-packages/blivet/tasks/fsmount.py", line 125, in do_task
    raise FSError("mount failed: %s" % rc)
blivet.errors.FSError: mount failed: 32

Re: VM's wont install

Posted: 28. Sep 2020, 02:24
by scottgus1
Please right-click the guest in the main Virtualbox window's guest list, choose Show Log.

Search the far left tab's log for this text:

Attempting fall back to NEM

If you find it, Hyper-V is enabled and needs to be disabled. See HMR3Init: Attempting fall back to NEM (Hyper-V is active). (The new test builds might have a fix for this problem. If you try a test build and it works, report here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=90853, and save the installer file.)

If you don't find that text, save the far left tab's log, zip the log file, and post the zip file, using the forum's Upload Attachment tab.

Re: VM's wont install

Posted: 28. Sep 2020, 08:49
by sThorn
Thanks for the fast response!
I thought both Hyper-V and the AMD-V needed to be active for VirtualBox to work,
seems like i need to do some more reading on how thees techs work together.

I disabled Hyper-V and booted my machine, seems to work now, thank you!


i found this in the logs:

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00:00:05.648647   UseNEMInstead           <integer> = 0x0000000000000000 (0)
00:00:05.648649 [/NEM/] (level 1)
00:00:05.648713 HM: HMR3Init: Attempting fall back to NEM: AMD-V is not available
00:00:05.677357 NEM: WHvCapabilityCodeHypervisorPresent is TRUE, so this might work...
00:00:05.677364 NEM: WHvCapabilityCodeExtendedVmExits      = 0x0000000000000007
00:00:05.677367 NEM:                       fExtendedMsrExit: 1
00:00:05.677370 NEM:                     fExtendedCpuIdExit: 1
00:00:05.677372 NEM:                      fExtendedXcptExit: 1
00:00:05.677374 NEM: Warning! Unknown feature definitions: 0x1f
00:00:05.677378 NEM: Supported exception exit bitmap: 0x0
00:00:05.677381 NEM: WHvCapabilityCodeProcessorVendor      = 0 - AMD
00:00:05.677387 NEM: WHvCapabilityCodeProcessorFeatures    = 0x000067cb66f39fbf
00:00:05.677390 NEM:                            Sse3Support: 1
00:00:05.677392 NEM:                        LahfSahfSupport: 1
00:00:05.677394 NEM:                           Ssse3Support: 1
00:00:05.677396 NEM:                          Sse4_1Support: 1
00:00:05.677398 NEM:                          Sse4_2Support: 1
00:00:05.677400 NEM:                           Sse4aSupport: 1
00:00:05.677402 NEM:                             XopSupport: 0
00:00:05.677406 NEM:                          PopCntSupport: 1
00:00:05.677408 NEM:                      Cmpxchg16bSupport: 1
00:00:05.677410 NEM:                       Altmovcr8Support: 1
00:00:05.677412 NEM:                           LzcntSupport: 1
00:00:05.677414 NEM:                     MisAlignSseSupport: 1
00:00:05.677416 NEM:                          MmxExtSupport: 1
00:00:05.677418 NEM:                        Amd3DNowSupport: 0
00:00:05.677420 NEM:                ExtendedAmd3DNowSupport: 0
00:00:05.677422 NEM:                         Page1GbSupport: 1
00:00:05.677424 NEM:                             AesSupport: 1
00:00:05.677426 NEM:                       PclmulqdqSupport: 1
00:00:05.677428 NEM:                            PcidSupport: 0
00:00:05.677429 NEM:                            Fma4Support: 0
00:00:05.677431 NEM:                            F16CSupport: 1
00:00:05.677433 NEM:                          RdRandSupport: 1
00:00:05.677435 NEM:                        RdWrFsGsSupport: 1
00:00:05.677437 NEM:                            SmepSupport: 1
00:00:05.677439 NEM:              EnhancedFastStringSupport: 0
00:00:05.677441 NEM:                            Bmi1Support: 1
00:00:05.677442 NEM:                            Bmi2Support: 1
00:00:05.677444 NEM:                           MovbeSupport: 1
00:00:05.677446 NEM:                          Npiep1Support: 1
00:00:05.677449 NEM:                   DepX87FPUSaveSupport: 0
00:00:05.677451 NEM:                          RdSeedSupport: 1
00:00:05.677453 NEM:                             AdxSupport: 1
00:00:05.677455 NEM:                   IntelPrefetchSupport: 0
00:00:05.677457 NEM:                            SmapSupport: 1
00:00:05.677458 NEM:                             HleSupport: 0
00:00:05.677460 NEM:                             RtmSupport: 0
00:00:05.677462 NEM:                          RdtscpSupport: 1
00:00:05.677464 NEM:                      ClflushoptSupport: 1
00:00:05.677466 NEM:                            ClwbSupport: 1
00:00:05.677468 NEM:                             ShaSupport: 1
00:00:05.677470 NEM:                X87PointersSavedSupport: 1
00:00:05.677471 NEM: Warning! Unknown CPU features: 0x67cb66f39fbf
00:00:05.677476 NEM: WHvCapabilityCodeProcessorClFlushSize = 2^8
00:00:05.677687 NEM: Warning! Unknown capability 0x1003 returning: 1f 38 00 00 00 00 00 00
00:00:05.678245 NEM: VidGetHvPartitionId            -> fun:0x2210a7 in:0x0 out:0x8
00:00:05.678249 NEM: VidStartVirtualProcessor       -> fun:0x221174 in:0x4 out:0x0
00:00:05.678251 NEM: VidStopVirtualProcessor        -> fun:0x221180 in:0x4 out:0x0
00:00:05.678254 NEM: VidMessageSlotHandleAndGetNext -> fun:0x2210df in:0x8 out:0x0
00:00:05.678386 NEM: Created partition 000000000198bac0.
00:00:05.678393 NEM: Adjusting APIC configuration from X2APIC to APIC max mode.  X2APIC is not supported by the WinHvPlatform API!
00:00:05.678395 NEM: Disable Hyper-V if you need X2APIC for your guests!
00:00:05.678435 NEM: NEMR3Init: Active.
00:00:05.684719 NEM: Successfully set up partition (device handle 0000000000000d3c, partition ID 0xa)
00:00:05.684728 NEM: Memory balance: 0x8f out of 0x171 pages in use
00:00:05.711879 TM: NEM overrides the /TM/TSCModeSwitchAllowed setting.
00:00:06.086280   Mnemonic - Description                                  = guest (host)
00:00:06.086318   Mnemonic - Description                                  = guest (host)
00:00:06.086434   Mnemonic - Description                                  = guest (host)
00:46:14.575153 /NEM/CPU0/BreakOnCancel                 0 times
00:46:14.575156 /NEM/CPU0/BreakOnFFPost             11629 times
00:46:14.575157 /NEM/CPU0/BreakOnFFPre             134721 times
00:46:14.575159 /NEM/CPU0/BreakOnStatus           3105527 times
00:46:14.575161 /NEM/CPU0/CancelAlertedEMT              0 times
00:46:14.575163 /NEM/CPU0/CancelChangedState            0 times
00:46:14.575165 /NEM/CPU0/ExitCpuId                 23258 times
00:46:14.575167 /NEM/CPU0/ExitException                 1 times
00:46:14.575169 /NEM/CPU0/ExitExceptionBp               1 times
00:46:14.575171 /NEM/CPU0/ExitExceptionDb               0 times
00:46:14.575173 /NEM/CPU0/ExitExceptionUd               0 times
00:46:14.575174 /NEM/CPU0/ExitExceptionUdHandled        0 times
00:46:14.575176 /NEM/CPU0/ExitHalt                3105527 times
00:46:14.575178 /NEM/CPU0/ExitInterruptWindow      111531 times
00:46:14.575180 /NEM/CPU0/ExitMemIntercept              0 times
00:46:14.575182 /NEM/CPU0/ExitMemUnmapped         7159011 times
00:46:14.575184 /NEM/CPU0/ExitMsr                   18419 times
00:46:14.575186 /NEM/CPU0/ExitPortIo              2973423 times
00:46:14.575188 /NEM/CPU0/ExitUnrecoverable             0 times
00:46:14.575190 /NEM/CPU0/GetMsgTimeout                 0 times
00:46:14.575191 /NEM/CPU0/ImportOnDemand           154040 times
00:46:14.575193 /NEM/CPU0/ImportOnReturn          3251079 times
00:46:14.575195 /NEM/CPU0/ImportOnReturnSkipped       798 times
00:46:14.575197 /NEM/CPU0/QueryCpuTick              12347 times
00:46:14.575199 /NEM/CPU0/StopCpuPending                0 times
00:46:14.575201 /NEM/CPU0/StopCpuPendingAlerts          0 times
00:46:14.575203 /NEM/CPU0/StopCpuPendingOdd             0 times
00:46:14.575205 /NEM/CPU0/StopCpuSuccess                0 times
00:46:14.575215 /NEM/R0Stats/cPagesAvailable           95 pages
00:46:14.575217 /NEM/R0Stats/cPagesInUse             1441 pages
00:46:14.575905 /PROF/CPU0/EM/NEMExec              430297 ticks/call (1399274424483 ticks, 3251877 times, max  77206032, min   33984)
00:46:14.575908 /PROF/CPU0/EM/NEMExecuteCalled    3141288 times
00:46:14.584037 NEM: Destroying partition 000000000198bac0 with its 1 VCpus...

Re: VM's wont install

Posted: 28. Sep 2020, 09:59
by mpack
sThorn wrote: I thought both Hyper-V and the AMD-V needed to be active for VirtualBox to work,
Hyper-v is the name of a rival piece of software, it would hardly be a prerequisite!

Both Hyper-v and VirtualBox need the hardware feature: AMD-v. If Hyper-v has already grabbed it then VirtualBox has to try to negotiate access with Hyper-v, which currently often doesn't go very well.

Executive summary: if you don't need both Hyper-v and VirtualBox then ditch one.

Re: VM's wont install

Posted: 28. Sep 2020, 20:28
by sThorn
mpack wrote:Executive summary: if you don't need both Hyper-v and VirtualBox then ditch one.
Thanks for the answer.

Does this also meanI can't run Docker and VirtualBox on the same Windows machine at the same time,
and I should rather build my Docker/Kubernetes kluster with hosts it VirtualBox?

Br Sebastian

Re: VM's wont install

Posted: 28. Sep 2020, 20:33
by scottgus1
I think Docker needs Hyper-V, so for now you'll have to toggle between Docker and Virtualbox using the tenforum switch: https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/139 ... puter.html

Running Docker inside a Virtualbox guest will be nested virtualization, I think. Depending on your physical CPU, you might be OK doing that or it might be a nightmare. You can tell from a Virtualbox guest log whether your CPU has the services it needs to make nested virtualization work:

Forun guru fth0's CPU requirements list:

Intel
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=98708&p=478598#p478598
VBox.log file wrote:
00:00:01.017650 *********************** VT-x features ***********************
00:00:01.017651 Nested hardware virtualization - VMX features
00:00:01.017651   Mnemonic - Description                          = guest (host)
00:00:01.017651   VMX - Virtual-Machine Extensions                = 1 (?)
00:00:01.017665   Ept - Extended Page Tables                      = 0 (?)
00:00:01.017668   UnrestrictedGuest - Unrestricted guest          = 0 (?)
00:00:01.017671   VmcsShadowing - VMCS shadowing                  = 0 (?)
AMD
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=99710&p=483915#p483915
VBox.log file wrote:
00:00:01.230412 Ext Features
00:00:01.230412   Mnemonic - Description                                  = guest (host)
00:00:01.230437   SVM - AMD Secure Virtual Machine extensions             = 1 (?)
00:00:01.230454 SVM Feature Identification (leaf A):
00:00:01.230455   NP - Nested Paging                                      = 0 (?)
00:00:01.230465   VMSAVEVirt - VMSAVE and VMLOAD Virtualization           = 0 (?)
You want (1)'s where the (?)'s are now.

Or figure out how to run Kubernetes directly in a Virtualbox guest instead of going through Docker, if that's possible.

Re: VM's wont install

Posted: 28. Sep 2020, 22:11
by fth0
scottgus1 wrote:Running Docker inside a Virtualbox guest will be nested virtualization, I think.
Not by itself. I'll try and explain the backgrounds:

Docker Engine is a native Linux application that doesn't need any hypervisor at all. If you want to use Docker on Windows/macOS instead, you install Docker Desktop for Windows/Mac, which implicitly uses the OS's native hypervisor framework (Hyper-V, Hypervisor.framework) to create the needed (hidden) Linux environment.

I'd try and disable Hyper-V on the Windows host, create a VirtualBox Linux VM, and install Docker Engine (docker-ce) inside. Note that if you want to run e.g. an Android emulator inside a Docker container, it will need KVM, and then you'll have to cope with nested virtualization. VirtualBox claims to support a KVM guest inside a VirtualBox VM, so this could work. I haven't tested it personally yet, though.

Re: VM's wont install

Posted: 28. Sep 2020, 23:27
by scottgus1
Thanks for the clarification, fth0. I haven't run Docker yet myself.

Re: VM's wont install

Posted: 28. Sep 2020, 23:46
by sThorn
Thank you all for the great answers!