virtualbox.org

Robert Walker wrote:Anyone know how to make an iso or cdr from a folder in the Mac which Virtual Box can read?

That's not the question -- you already said VirtualBox can read it just fine. Try burning it on a disc and booting it, I bet it won't work either. The problem here is creating a bootable ISO, and that's not the same as a plain data ISO.

You're definitely doing it wrong -- an ISO9660/Joliet OS X CD image is extremely unlikely to be bootable, all the actual installation discs I've seen use HFS. See https://developer.apple.com/library/mac ... til.1.html for some ideas. I don't have the exact recipe for you, sorry.

michaln wrote:You're definitely doing it wrong -- an ISO9660/Joliet OS X CD image is extremely unlikely to be bootable, all the actual installation discs I've seen use HFS. See https://developer.apple.com/library/mac ... til.1.html for some ideas. I don't have the exact recipe for you, sorry.

Okay thanks, I didn't realize that. That's okay, thanks for your help. I don't know what to do then. The instructions for editing the OSInstall I think are Had a google but can't find any good instructions for how to make a bootable iso from a folder, but good to know what the issue is.

If it's of any interest, the hdiuitil params are here

https://developer.apple.com/library/mac ... til.1.html

I tried doing the command for the folder directly (bypassing disk utility) and leaving out the -joliet bit which it said would make all four file systems, but is obviously not enough to make it work, same as before.

Something else needed.

Just to say why I was doing it - first step here is to copy the install DVD to rewritable DVD.

http://hints.macworld.com/article.php?s ... 6083746346

Anyone got any more thoughts interested to give them a go, thanks.

I thought - just extracting the iso to a folder, editing that, and then remaking a .iso again would be a way of doing the same thing.

A basic question: The CD/DVDs are for the Server edition of Leopard, yes?
The Apple EULA only allows the Server edition to be virtualised. And, as I recall, Apple enforced that for Leopard.

Update: dug out my 'Leopard Install Disk 1' cd and tried to install in a VM; the install did a panic.
BTW, it reported "system install name: iMac 7,1 (VirtualBox)"

ChipMcK wrote:A basic question: The CD/DVDs are for the Server edition of Leopard, yes?
The Apple EULA only allows the Server edition to be virtualised. And, as I recall, Apple enforced that for Leopard.

Update: dug out my 'Leopard Install Disk 1' cd and tried to install in a VM; the install did a panic.
BTW, it reported "system install name: iMac 7,1 (VirtualBox)"

No, it's the personal edition. As I understand it, they changed their EULA to permit this, up to two virtual machines on a single computer running previous or later versions of OSX, so long as it is for - and they list a number of different permitted uses, one of which is, for developers for compatibility testing and debugging. Which is why I'm doing it.

And - I'm running these operating systems only in the virtual machine, on Apple hardware, and not got them running on any other computer. Sorry I can't seem to find the link now - a page on apple.com where they go into details, listing various reasons for doing this with use by developers for testing programs as one of the permitted uses - but I checked carefully before doing this, that it was legal to do it.

There seems to be some confusion about Apple's EULAs. This quote from the VMWare knowledge base should clear things up some.

According to Apple's licensing policies, VMware only supports the virtualization of Apple Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks) client or server, Mac OS X 10.8 (Mountain Lion) client or server, Mac OS X 10.7 (Lion) client or server, 10.6 (Snow Leopard) server and 10.5 (Leopard) server.

The End User License Agreement (EULA) for Apple Mac OS X legally and explicitly binds the installation and running of the operating system to Apple-labeled computers only. Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard Server, 10.6 Snow Leopard Server, 10.7 Lion client or server, 10.8 Mountain Lion client or server and 10.9 Mavericks client or server are fully supported on VMware Fusion while running on supported Apple hardware.

.
So technically, if you virtualize 10.6 or 10.5 clients, you are in violation of Apple's EULA. Whether Apple cares is another story.

Robert is correct however in the sense that you can run up to 2 virtual copies of the above allowed versions.

edit: Yosemite 10.10 can also be run as a VM. Basically any version of OSX you could get from the App Store.

loukingjr wrote:There seems to be some confusion about Apple's EULAs. This quote from the VMWare knowledge base should clear things up some.

According to Apple's licensing policies, VMware only supports the virtualization of Apple Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks) client or server, Mac OS X 10.8 (Mountain Lion) client or server, Mac OS X 10.7 (Lion) client or server, 10.6 (Snow Leopard) server and 10.5 (Leopard) server.

The End User License Agreement (EULA) for Apple Mac OS X legally and explicitly binds the installation and running of the operating system to Apple-labeled computers only. Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard Server, 10.6 Snow Leopard Server, 10.7 Lion client or server, 10.8 Mountain Lion client or server and 10.9 Mavericks client or server are fully supported on VMware Fusion while running on supported Apple hardware.

.
So technically, if you virtualize 10.6 or 10.5 clients, you are in violation of Apple's EULA. Whether Apple cares is another story.

Robert is correct however in the sense that you can run up to 2 virtual copies of the above allowed versions.

edit: Yosemite 10.10 can also be run as a VM. Basically any version of OSX you could get from the App Store.

Oh I was not aware of that distinction at all. I still can't find the Apple page that I read originally on this.

The license agreement though isn't at all clear. It just says that you can only run one copy of the client version of Leopard / Snow Leopard etc on Apple hardware. Doesn't say anything about what you can do if you have another licensed OS running on the same machine. If they have put this in their EULA, it must be somehwere else.

The license agreement says

Subject to the terms and conditions of this License, unless you have purchased a Family Pack or Upgrade license for the Apple Software,
you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-branded computer at a time. You
agree not to install, use or run the Apple Software on any non-Apple-branded computer, or to enable others to do so. This License does not allow the Apple
Software to exist on more than one computer at a time, and you may not make the Apple Software available over a network where it could be used by multiple
computers at the same time.

Doesn't say anything about running it i a virtual machine on a computer that is already running another licensed operating system. After all I've already paid for that separately.

I suppose it hinges on what they mean by "the Apple Software" - it would be natural to assume that means, this particular Leopard OS that I bought rather than all Apple operating systems.

Indeed - a natural way of reading that license would be that, if you needed to, you could also install as many copies of say Leopard in virtual machines on the same hardware, so long as you bought a separate license for each one.

There is a long thread here with many people making this point and equally confused about it which I found just now with a google search to see if I can find out more about the topic.

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3187252?tstart=0

Would be good to have a clear statement from Apple themselves. And - I also wonder if they are in their rights legally to impose this - which seems to be an extra restriction on top of what they have written into the licensing agreement bundled with the product. Unless there is some clause somewhere saying they can update their licenses in this way to add extra restrictions to them.

But I'm no lawyer .

The reason I posted the Faq from VMWare is because they do have lawyers and they work directly with Apple. Because Apple no longer supports 10.5 or 10.6 I'm sure they didn't bother changing the SLA's for those clients. Which basically means, they remain as they were and is why VMWare doesn't support them.

Here is the Apple SLA page. http://www.apple.com/legal/sla/

You will notice that from 10.7 on they explicitly state it's okay to run the OS as a virtual machine. They do not state that in the 10.5 or 10.6 agreements. They no longer have the 10.5 agreement online.

So, you take your chances.

loukingjr wrote:The reason I posted the Faq from VMWare is because they do have lawyers and they work directly with Apple. Because Apple no longer supports 10.5 or 10.6 I'm sure they didn't bother changing the SLA's for those clients. Which basically means, they remain as they were and is why VMWare doesn't support them.

Here is the Apple SLA page. http://www.apple.com/legal/sla/

You will notice that from 10.7 on they explicitly state it's okay to run the OS as a virtual machine. They do not state that in the 10.5 or 10.6 agreements. They no longer have the 10.5 agreement online.

So, you take your chances.

Okay I understand now - it's not about whether the license lets me run it on my hardware, even along with other operating systems (e.g. in a partition if it permitted running leopard that way which of course it doesn't) but about whether the license agreement permits running it in a virtual machine at all on my hardware. Which they explicitly say is permitted from 10.7 onwards but say nothing about, either way, in the license agreements for 10.5 and 10.6.

Makes sense.

I was going to ask why people are concerned about OSX 10.5 compatibility in the first place so they would need to be running 10.5 since I can't imagine there are that many people still running 10.5 but then I saw yesterday on the People's Court a woman suing her ex for not returning her iMac and it was apparently running OSX 10.5.8 So there is at least one person still running it.

loukingjr wrote:I was going to ask why people are concerned about OSX 10.5 compatibility in the first place so they would need to be running 10.5 since I can't imagine there are that many people still running 10.5 but then I saw yesterday on the People's Court a woman suing her ex for not returning her iMac and it was apparently running OSX 10.5.8 So there is at least one person still running it.

Yes there are at least a few. The reason I'm keen to get a Leopard VM running is because someone asked me if my program is available for Leopard.

My program runs in a Wineskin but the latest version of Wineskin is only compatbile back to Snow Leopard.

To make a Leopard compatible version I need to use Wineskin 2.5.4, but that is locked to 10.5 - it will only run on Leopard.

I can make the skin in a later version of the OS - but I can't test it at all unless I have leopard. I don't even know yet if it runs on Leopard.

Most of my users want it on Snow Leopard or later. But I'd like it to be available also for those few who still run Leopard, if possible.

Do you have a developer's license? There is a 10.5 build available for download. Maybe that would give you better luck.

loukingjr wrote:Do you have a developer's license? There is a 10.5 build available for download. Maybe that would give you better luck.

Oh okay, that's interesting, I can give that a go. I haven't got a license yet, but I was planning to get a Developer's license when my program was out of beta for the Mac so that I could sign my apps.

Robert Walker wrote:

loukingjr wrote:Do you have a developer's license? There is a 10.5 build available for download. Maybe that would give you better luck.

Oh okay, that's interesting, I can give that a go. I haven't got a license yet, but I was planning to get a Developer's license when my program was out of beta for the Mac so that I could sign my apps.

I don't know that it will work. I downloaded the file and among the other checks it looks at what kind of displays are available and I don't know how to get around that.
I also downloaded the trial of VMWare Fusion and it wouldn't create a guest either. Just as they said, they don't support a 10.5 client.

loukingjr wrote: I don't know that it will work. I downloaded the file and among the other checks it looks at what kind of displays are available and I don't know how to get around that.
I also downloaded the trial of VMWare Fusion and it wouldn't create a guest either. Just as they said, they don't support a 10.5 client.

Oh, okay, so maybe it won't work. Thanks for taking a look. But I think I'll give it a go just in case, no harm to try.

I've just bought a Developer's License now - should release my programs soon anyway hopefully. So a good point to started signing my betas in lead up to release.

Apart from that my only other idea is to continue, see if I can find a way to make the edited iso bootable. Or - just have to wait until I can get a second hand hardware Leopard from ebay or similar.

What with them providing a 10.5 client for download for developers, and the license just not mentioning VMs, and not saying clearly anywhere either way what they think about developers making VMs of 10.5 to run on apple hardware, I feel that though apparently they haven't out and out said it is okay to do this, they don't seem to be particularly discouraging it either and it's reasonable to try a bit longer.

System Preferences ---> Startup Disk and select the volume/partition with the installation of Leopard