virtualbox.org

Hi all.

Can i get some advice on a layout I want to try and impliment. Basicaly i want to know if it's workable and if i could run into some hickups.

I want to upgrade my network but to save money i'm looking at getting a good rig as a ubuntu server with virtualbox and up to 5 windows 8.1 guests. The goal is then to RDP the old outdated pc's running various version of windows to a coresponding VBox to shift the load to the single new machine. My main concern is the amount of cores and vCPU's available as i understand you can only run as many VM's as you have vCPU's for.

The hardware specs is as follow

i5-4670k Quad core CPU (I'm assuming i'll have 8 vCPU's as my own i7-3770k quad core has 8?)
Intel® Desktop Board DB85FL (Supports virtualization)
16Gig RAM (I'll assign 2-3 Gig RAM to each guest depending on how many i run but will add more physical RAM if needed ofc.)
80 Gig SSD for host OS Ubuntu Server
2 x 500Gig 7200 rpm spinners (2 VM's per drive so i don't create too much of a bottleneck)

Basicaly my question is will the ubuntu server handle 5 guests running windows 8 doing regular office tasks like email, internet and IQ accounting and how many can i run before everything just gets bogged down?

Thanks in advance

ODTech wrote:Hi all.

The hardware specs is as follow

i5-4670k Quad core CPU (I'm assuming i'll have 8 vCPU's as my own i7-3770k quad core has 8?)

Not really. The i5 only gives you 4 threads. Only the i7 gives 8.

http://ark.intel.com/products/75048/Int ... o-3_80-GHz

http://ark.intel.com/products/75122/Int ... o-3_90-GHz

BillG wrote:

ODTech wrote:Hi all.

The hardware specs is as follow

i5-4670k Quad core CPU (I'm assuming i'll have 8 vCPU's as my own i7-3770k quad core has 8?)

Not really. The i5 only gives you 4 threads. Only the i7 gives 8.

http://ark.intel.com/products/75048/Int ... o-3_80-GHz

http://ark.intel.com/products/75122/Int ... o-3_90-GHz

Right, thanks. I guess i'll have to get a i7 or a small intel server if i'm planning on adding more later.

ODTech wrote:Basicaly my question is will the ubuntu server handle 5 guests running windows 8 doing regular office tasks like email, internet and IQ accounting and how many can i run before everything just gets bogged down?

That is a loaded question and depends very much on the characteristics of the work of the clients. You will likely be buying more memory soon. Since you are looking at using the old PCs as thin clients, you might want to look into alternatives to RDP. RDP may well be the best solution, but there are several alternatives. My setup runs Sun Ray thin clients which are now EOL (dang you Oracle!) connected to a Solaris server that runs a dozen or so Windows / Linux instances at any moment in time. The server is over-provisioned to allow for growth headroom and it provides services beyond just hosting VB sessions. You will likely want more cores and more RAM, almost no matter what you start with. We started with 4 cores and 16GB a few years ago and grew into the current configuration of 24 cores and 60GB.

I have decided that in the real world, we need 4GB and two cores per guest for regular office / surfing tasks, plus whatever the host wants.

martyscholes wrote:

ODTech wrote:Basicaly my question is will the ubuntu server handle 5 guests running windows 8 doing regular office tasks like email, internet and IQ accounting and how many can i run before everything just gets bogged down?

That is a loaded question and depends very much on the characteristics of the work of the clients. You will likely be buying more memory soon. Since you are looking at using the old PCs as thin clients, you might want to look into alternatives to RDP. RDP may well be the best solution, but there are several alternatives. My setup runs Sun Ray thin clients which are now EOL (dang you Oracle!) connected to a Solaris server that runs a dozen or so Windows / Linux instances at any moment in time. The server is over-provisioned to allow for growth headroom and it provides services beyond just hosting VB sessions. You will likely want more cores and more RAM, almost no matter what you start with. We started with 4 cores and 16GB a few years ago and grew into the current configuration of 24 cores and 60GB.

I have decided that in the real world, we need 4GB and two cores per guest for regular office / surfing tasks, plus whatever the host wants.

You can get SunRay thin clients very cheap on ebay now, a Sunray2 for $40 or so. A steal. And the SunRay Server Software is free to download for Linux from Oracle site. Just plug the Sunray into the router, and the login window will automatically popup. Then you start up Virtualbox and windows. I do this at home, and it works great.

Brutalizer wrote:You can get SunRay thin clients very cheap on ebay now, a Sunray2 for $40 or so. A steal. And the SunRay Server Software is free to download for Linux from Oracle site. Just plug the Sunray into the router, and the login window will automatically popup. Then you start up Virtualbox and windows. I do this at home, and it works great.

Brutalizer, have you managed to get 3D working for Windows guests over Sun Rays in Linux? I have failed miserably in Solaris.

martyscholes wrote:

Brutalizer wrote:You can get SunRay thin clients very cheap on ebay now, a Sunray2 for $40 or so. A steal. And the SunRay Server Software is free to download for Linux from Oracle site. Just plug the Sunray into the router, and the login window will automatically popup. Then you start up Virtualbox and windows. I do this at home, and it works great.

Brutalizer, have you managed to get 3D working for Windows guests over Sun Rays in Linux? I have failed miserably in Solaris.

I dont think SunRay can use 3D. The graphics capabilities are very limited, as the SunRay essentially gets something like JPEG pics from the Sunray server. There are no processing done on the sunray client, no software is run so it is very safe, everything is run on the server. So you can not upgrade the client, you upgrade the server instead.

With that said, you can increase graphics performance by patching the firmware bios on the sunray client to the latest. And virtualize an OS that is supported by the SunRay software (for instance, Windows 7 Enterprise) - there is an supported list in the manual. And also, install the msi file that comes with SunRay server software (supplemental install directory I think), into the Windows VM that enhances capabilities and boosts performacne of InternetExplorer. So if you use the latest SunRay3 with latest bios firmware, you can play 720p movies on the client (if you are using IE and Win7Enterprise) and maybe also play 1080p? Everything I wrote is detailed in the manual.

Brutalizer wrote:I dont think SunRay can use 3D. The graphics capabilities are very limited, as the SunRay essentially gets something like JPEG pics from the Sunray server. There are no processing done on the sunray client, no software is run so it is very safe, everything is run on the server. So you can not upgrade the client, you upgrade the server instead.

With that said, you can increase graphics performance by patching the firmware bios on the sunray client to the latest. And virtualize an OS that is supported by the SunRay software (for instance, Windows 7 Enterprise) - there is an supported list in the manual. And also, install the msi file that comes with SunRay server software (supplemental install directory I think), into the Windows VM that enhances capabilities and boosts performacne of InternetExplorer. So if you use the latest SunRay3 with latest bios firmware, you can play 720p movies on the client (if you are using IE and Win7Enterprise) and maybe also play 1080p? Everything I wrote is detailed in the manual.

We are on the same page. There is a way with a 3D card on the server and VirtualGL that 3D apps can run on the server and display on the Sun Rays. I have installed all of the components and set up a Windows 7 instance with 3D acceleration and it worked on the console, but not the Sun Rays. Other simple 3D apps, such as glxgears and various xscreensaver modules, work just fine on the Sun Ray and the console, but not VirtualBox.

In short, at least here in Solaris in my experience, you can pick any two of:
* 3D
* VirtualBox
* Sun Ray

Pick any two, but not all three. I was just wondering if you have ventured down that path yet.

Thanks much for the info, very helpful.

Is there any other thin clients that's compatible with vbox running on ubuntu?

martyscholes wrote:I have decided that in the real world, we need 4GB and two cores per guest for regular office / surfing tasks, plus whatever the host wants.

How did you arrive at this conclusion? Sun said that measurements shows that one heavy Office user on Sunray, consumes 700MHz of cpu power. So if you have a quad core at 2GHz, you have in total 8GHz which can drive ~10 Office users. So what do you mean with "2 cores" per guest?


@ODTech,
I dont know too much of other thin clients than SunRay.

But typically a thin client has 1GHz cpu, 256-512MB RAM and a small OS (embedded Windows CE, or smallish Linux) that needs to be patched and maintained. They might have a hard disk. You can upgrade them with more RAM, etc. In effect, they are a very weak PC. So I dont see the benefit of a normal thin client, you could as well buy a Intel NUC PC (very small form factor) with core i3 instead.

SunRays are ultra thin clients, which means they dont run any software at all, no hard disk, no cpu, no RAM, no nothing. Everything is run on the server, nothing is run on the client. This means you can not upgrade the Sunray client, there is no need for that. They act like a keyboard or mouse, send I/O in to the server, and the server sends back bitmap pictures to the client. This means that graphics is weak, and lags above 400x400 pixel windows. So if you need more cpu power, you just upgrade the server instead, and wham, all users have got upgraded. You just plug SunRay into the router and then a login window pops up. Zero maintenance. MTBF is 22 years, so they never break, no fans, no moving parts, no nothing. They will never be too weak or need upgrading to more power. The size of a VHS cassette, very small and use 4 Watt of power. I suggest you try to buy one refurbished Sunray2 client off eBay for $40 USD. SunRay2 supports max 1680x1050 pixel monitors. Sunray2+ supports max dual 1920x1200 pixel monitors. Sunray3+ supports dual 2560x1600 monitors. If you have Sunray3+ you can play 720p movies without lag. The software is called SunRay Server Software and can be downloaded for free from Oracle website. After installation, you just plugin the SunRay client in the router, and you are done. You can even run them over WAN, bring a client to another country and login to your SunRay server without problems. Sun Microsystems, typically had users in India and the servers in USA. They had 19.000 SunRay users all over the world, supported by only 38 admins. If a sunray breaks, just plugin another client and you are done.

I love them and many consider them the best solution. However, Oracle only does high margin business, so they have just recently discontinued SunRay, but they will be supported for many years still. Enterprise support is always many many years. SunRay clients never breaks and are very cheap, so Oracle did not make too much money off Sunray.

Other thin clients are considerably more expensive, and they are very weak, as they typically run the software on themselves. Unless they are ultra thin clients, that have copied SunRay clients. SunRay clients were the first ultra thin clients on the market, and all other thin clients were like a weak pc. Today some have started to copy SunRay clients, I dont know their names though, but they are expensive.

Brutalizer wrote:

martyscholes wrote:I have decided that in the real world, we need 4GB and two cores per guest for regular office / surfing tasks, plus whatever the host wants.

How did you arrive at this conclusion? Sun said that measurements shows that one heavy Office user on Sunray, consumes 700MHz of cpu power. So if you have a quad core at 2GHz, you have in total 8GHz which can drive ~10 Office users. So what do you mean with "2 cores" per guest?

That's just what we have found we use. I should clarify that we use two cores per active guest with a user, not per guest just idling in the background. It's a rule of thumb that seems to apply in our environment, but the real number is more like 1.3 cores per guest. As noted, the usage is highly dependent upon the workload. One guest running flash in a browser on can quickly saturate multiple cores. If the user leaves the session running, it continues to use cycles even after the user is gone.

I do agree with your statements about the cost and power of Sun Ray clients. My personal workstation has multiple Sun Ray 2FS clients each supporting 1600x1200. Sun Ray also makes multi-head displays a breeze.

Are you talking about two cores per each VM? And each VM has several guests? Or are you talking about per user?

(Sun said that 700MHz of cpu power is enough for a heavy office user).

Brutalizer wrote:Are you talking about two cores per each VM? And each VM has several guests? Or are you talking about per user?

(Sun said that 700MHz of cpu power is enough for a heavy office user).

I would agree with Sun's number for a Solaris user of several years ago. That seems reasonable. Throw some VB guests in the mix and the resource usage explodes. Get people surfing the web with flash or video and trying to do anything besides run a word processor or spreadsheet then usage also explodes. I suppose I am talking about two cores per user. Several users (especially me) run multiple VMs simultaneously. I don't have a distinction between VM and guest, because the host has only one instance on the frame, at least where I sit.

Ok i get that sunray is very reliable but it will break eventualy and some sooner than later. I'm just worried about availability a few years down the line.

What's everyone thoughts on a Raspberri PI as a thin client to a VBOX server running Windows Guests?