Feasability of installing Leopard on Ventura

[Nicodo]

Hi all
I need to be able to open files that had been created by an application that I don't want to upgrade (it's now outrageously expensive and I hardly would need to use it). It was on an iMac running Leopard that I still own. I still have the MacOS install CD. I currently use an M1 MacBook Air with 16GB RAM and 512GB drive.
So my questions are:

• Is it possible?
• Since my RAM and drive are limited I would like to install the system on an external USB-C SSD. Possible? I don't need it to be super fast.

TIA
Regards
Nick

[Nicodo]

Hello all
Happy New Year!
I must say I am rather pessimistic about the feasibility of my plan. As far as I know 2 VMs allow a MacOS guest on a MacOS host: Oracle Virtuabox (free) and Parallels Desktop (expensive). I couldn't figure out if such an old MacOS version as Leapard could be a guest.
Could you tell me more?
TIA
Regards
Nick

[multiOS]

Neither VirtualBox nor VMware Fusion support installing x86 Operating Systems on Silicon (M Series) Macs as CPU emulation is not provided by either software.

You could try with UTM (OpenSource on GitHub, or via the Mac AppStore at a 'low cost' to support continuing app development). UTM does use QEMU to provide CPU emulation, but don't expect sparkling performance, even if the OS can be installed; and the demands of the software you want to run may also have an impact. - CPU emulation is very heavy on system resources, but you might be lucky with an 'old' OS and software.

[Nicodo]

Thanks for your quick response multiOS.

Neither VirtualBox nor VMware Fusion support installing x86 Operating Systems on Silicon (M Series) Macs as CPU emulation is not provided by either software.

That's what I was afraid of. "sigh"
From what I read about UTM I understood it could run Windows only. I a m currently trying to get more info on this topic.
Nick

[multiOS]

From what I read about UTM I understood it could run Windows only. I a m currently trying to get more info on this topic.

Have just checked, and from the UTM Website - "The default backend for UTM is QEMU. QEMU supports both virtualization and emulation (running code designed for different system architectures). QEMU cannot run macOS virtualized on Apple Silicon."

Source: https://docs.getutm.app/settings-qemu/settings-qemu/

So UTM, like other solutions, can only virtualise 'modern' ARM64 macOS VMs using the Apple Hypervisor and I'm afraid that it appears to be another 'blind alley' for x86_64 macOS versions. I suspect that the payware option of Parallels will have similar limitations, unless they have developed their own in-house x86_64 emulation solution; and the only real option may be using an 'old' Intel Mac.

[Nicodo]

Hi multiOS
Thanks for your reply.
It's what I was afraid of. It occurred to me that I have a late 2012 Mac Mini that runs on Mavericks 10.9.5. So it's an x86_64. What do you think?
Nick

[granada29]

Hi multiOS
Thanks for your reply.
It's what I was afraid of. It occurred to me that I have a late 2012 Mac Mini that runs on Mavericks 10.9.5. So it's an x86_64. What do you think?
Nick

I have a late 2012 Mac Mini, 16GB ram, i7 cpu. It seems quite happy running a Leopard VM. You could try the following.

1. Upgrade macOS from Mavericks to Catalina. AFAIK Cataline is the most recent macOS that can be installed in your Mac Mini.
2. Install VirtualBox 6.1.50 (download from https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Download_Old_Builds_6_1)
3. Create your Leopard VM. You may need to search this forum for workarounds to any quirks involved in that.

None of this software is supported, so you should probably think about isolating the host and VM from the internet.

[multiOS]

@granada29

Thanks for coming in with your knowledge/experience with macOS VMs. Hope you had a good Xmas/New Year break.

I'm down to just one remaining Intel Mac now (MacBook Pro 2011), which is limited to High Sierra and I only continue to maintain that because it''s still reliable and is setup to manage Home Network printing/scanning and backup storage, but it did perform well running VMs up to and including Windows 10 on VirtualBox 6.1, so I agree something of a similar vintage should be O.K. for an 'older' Intel only macOS VM.

[Nicodo]

I have a late 2012 Mac Mini, 16GB ram, i7 cpu. It seems quite happy running a Leopard VM.

You keep old stuff too.

You could try the following.
1. Upgrade macOS from Mavericks to Catalina. AFAIK Cataline is the most recent macOS that can be installed in your Mac Mini.
2. Install VirtualBox 6.1.50 (download from https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Download_Old_Builds_6_1)
3. Create your Leopard VM. You may need to search this forum for workarounds to any quirks involved in that.

OK, thanks for the tip. Where can I get Catlina from?
Could this Mini run on MacOS Leopard? I still have the iMac (in a very bad shape) my stuff was running on. The HD is still OK and has Leopard on it.

None of this software is supported, so you should probably think about isolating the host and VM from the internet.

On don't use the Mini to go on the Web.
Nick

[granada29]

The first thing I would try is to perform a normal System Software update. Hopefully Apple will still provide Catalina through the normal means

This is a little outside the scope of VirtualBox so if softwareupdate fails then maybe make some queries at Mac Rumors (https://forums.macrumors.com/) where there is a lot more expertise.

Similarly with getting hold of a Leopard installer for your VM. I'm pretty sure you won't be able to run Leopard natively on that hardware. From memory, my Mac Mini can only run Mt Lion or later.

Edit:
Mr Macintosh also has links for downloading older versions of macOS.
https://mrmacintosh.com/how-to-download ... nstallers/

[multiOS]

A couple of general guides that might be useful:

1. https://osxdaily.com/2011/11/17/install ... e-on-lion/

and if occasional internet access is required'

2. https://osxdaily.com/2026/01/06/powerfo ... w-leopard/

[Nicodo]

The first thing I would try is to perform a normal System Software update. Hopefully Apple will still provide Catalina through the normal means

I struggled in vain trying to download Catalina from the Apple Store. When I do it from my M1 MacBook the message is that it's not compatible with my device. When I do it from my Mini it asks to sign in and then it tells me my Apple ID and password are wrong whereas when I sign in on my MB it's OK. When I choose to update my password I am trapped in a loop. That's typically Apple . Is there other means of getting it?

Conversely downloading Virtualbox was like a breeze.

I would like to know if my plan is practical:
Instead of upgrading from Mavericks to Catalina on the built-in drive I would rather install Catalina on a blank SSD. There are 2 reasons:

• I keep this Mini because I occasionally need to run legacy apps that either I don't want to upgrade or that are discontinued. I wonder if they would still run on Catalina. So I would have 2 MacOs versions to start-up.

• The Mini is extemely sluggish in particular when waking up. Hopefully the SSD would make it quicker.

Hence I would start by using it connected externally and if it works I would install it internally (I have a 500GB SSD and the necessary gears I never used so far).

Nick

[granada29]

Mavericks is now a very old version of macOS. The Apple Store has gone through many iterations in that time so I'm not surprised that the connection from a Mavericks client is being rejected.

The Mr Macintosh links bypass the Apple Store and are probably a better approach to getting the Catalina installer. You should be able to use the link from your M1 and then transfer the downloaded installer to the Mavericks machine.

Installing Catalina to an external SSD should be OK, although you may take a slight performance hit. It's not a bad approach and one I use myself on several machines, including an M1 Mini.

Good luck