Virtualization inside a virtualizer, discussions

[Martin]

I'm running ESXi in Vbox (with VT-x) but don't start VMs. I just use it to update ESXi embedded USB sticks.

[adi.biztech]

Hello everyone...
I'm using Oracle VirtualBox Version 3.2.4.
the program is running above OS Windows 7 Enterprise x64 with system like :
- Dell Optiplex 960
- processor core 2 duo E8400 3GHz
- Setting BIOS : Virtualization :
> enable Intel Virtualization Technology
> VT for Direct I/O : enable intel VT for Direct I/O
> Trusted Execution : disable Intel Trusted ExecutionTechnology
- RAM 8GB
- Setting VM :
> System VT-x / AMD-V : Enabled
> nested paging : Enabled

the Guest VM is Windows Server 2008 R2
- installed Service Pack 1
- RAM 2 GB
- Processor 2 CPU's

I try to install Hyper-V server Role but there is error :
"Hyper-V cannot be installed
The processor on this computer is not compatible with Hyper-V. To install this role, the processor must have a supported version of hardware-assisted virtualization, and that feature must be turned on in the BIOS"

is that true that we can't use Virtualization Extension (AMD-V, VT-X) inside a Virtualized Server???
thank you for helping me..

[Technologov]

> is that true that we can't use Virtualization Extension (AMD-V, VT-X) inside a Virtualized Server?

True.

[Thomasio]

From my experience it´s a matter of keeping the old versions of software.
While all the latest versions of VirtualBox, VirtualPC, etc., make use of hardware features, older versions don´t.
You cannot install a virtualizer inside a VM, as long as the virtualizer tries to access host hardware directly.
On the other hand the latest versions don´t have support for some older features anymore, like guest additions for MS-DOS.
As long as you still have the old versions, and your PC is fast enough to handle 3 or 4 layers of virtualization, you can do something like:

Win7 64bit Host running VirtualBox 4.x
--> XP Guest running VirtualPC 2004
--> --> Win98 guest running the very old Connectix version of VirtualPC
--> --> --> MS-DOS guest including guest additions

This should work with about any OS, as long as the versions of the OS and the virtualizer originate around the same date.

As a side note, let me add, or better quote a comment I found elsewhere:
For most users the whole purpose of using a virtualizer is a nostalgic wish to run obsolete software that isn´t supported by their current OS.
While it may have some advantage for professionals to have a virtualizer capable of of running the latest 64bit version of some linux distribution inside Windows7 or the other way around, the vast majority of users would highly prefer full support for Win95 or MS-DOS in order to run old and obsolete software.

[Technologov]

Yes, I agree with you.

But instead of doing 3 levels, you can do only 2:
1. VBox 4.0 with Windows 2000 guest
2. old VirtualPC with MS-DOS guest (it should run on Windows 2000 and XP SP0 hosts)

>For most users the whole purpose of using a virtualizer is a nostalgic wish to run obsolete software that isn´t supported by their current OS.
Not only. There are server guys who run on servers.
For me, yes, nostalgic is one reason. (run old games and old software)

Another reason: cross-platform software development & QA.
In the past it was impossible to do seamless cross-platform development & QA, where I can test code changes on the fly with all target OSes by simply copy-pasting code and running from shared folders.
Surely you could buy 2 PCs - one for Windows and another for Linux, but (even with KVM switch) it is *far* less convenient than using one powerful machine + VirtualBox. (I myself have 4 PCs at home, but mainly using one powerful XRig).

-Technologov

[j.d.m]

I have a development environment available in VirtualPC and I need to install VirtualBox too: I tried but I get the error "the software you are installing has not passed windows logo testing to verify its compatibility with windows xp", if i ignore the message and continue then VIrtual PC gets stuck.

Any suggestion ?
THanks

[Technologov]

You install them in parallel on Windows XP host ?

Or you install VirtualBox inside VirtualPC ? or VirtualPC inside VirtualBox ?

[j.d.m]

Virtual Box inside Virtual PC;

Notebook Windows 7
-- Virtual PC Windows XP
---- Virtual Box

[Technologov]

I recommend u to install side-by-side.

[scp]

Sometimes I used this combination successfuly:
XenServer / XCP
-- Windows Server 2003
---- VirtualBox 3.x.x ( mainly 3.0.8 and 3.1.8 )
------ Windows XP

PS: XenServer and XCP are using a modified version of qemu for Windows VMs and other HVMs.
PPS: This scenario is only used for testing things like RIS and software deployment, so the XP VM runs only for a short time and not permanent. It is easier for me to have remote desktop to the server with a VBox Window than using the XenCenter.

The reverse way worked with some older versions but not with current ( VBox 4.1, XS 5.6.x / XCP 1.0 )
Ubuntu x64
-- VirtualBox 3.x.x
---- XenServer
------ Windows XP

[virtual_dave]

Ubuntu 11.10 64 bit on AMD hardware running
----- a virtualbox Windows 7 ultimate - 64 bit and
----- a virtualbox 64 bit Ubuntu 11.10
---------- which is running a virtualbox 32 bit Ubuntu 11.10

Innermost instance is pretty slow, but it's old hardware and I haven't messed much with the settings to see how much I can speed it up. Nothing special done to set it up.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/820/screenshotat20111023224.png/

[drurew]

Hi

Im trying to run a Debian Xen i386 kernel on a 4.1.4 virtualbox running on osx SL. Basicly the system wont run using the xen kernel.

Once I get Xen running, Id build a project (minimal centos) and export it to a physical xen host.

Has anyone managed to get something like this working?

I'm open to using alternative virtualization methods (products).

Cheers

[allpoints]

You can run concurrent Linux, BSD, Windows guests on multiple VBox instances in multiple Solaris 10 & S11 zones, all bridged to CrossBow vNICs on a S11 host VM running on VBox on a Solaris 11 physical host.
Moreover, you can create virtual switches, routers, load balancers, traffic shapers, milspec firewalls, DNS/DHCP/proxy servers, and cluster/failover devices with an arbitrary number of highly controllable vNICs within the same single Solaris 11 instance.


Does this count?

[martyscholes]

) Does this count?

Sort of. In my case I had an older OpenSolaris install where it was common for users to run VirtualBox (windows / linux guests) from their Sun Ray Gnome sessions on the server. I wanted to install S11 with minimal downtime.

Ideally, I would have installed a hypervisor on the bare metal, running OpenSolaris on one DomU amd testing the S11 install on another, tweaking S11 until everything was perfect then cutting the users over.

But no, it seems nesting is taboo. It must have been in the early 90s when I visited a large mainframe installation. They were explaining to me that they ran MVS for their new apps and VSE for the older apps. They had several dev, build and test instances of each OS and a slick way to snap the QA instances back to a known state for each testing run. They also had a set of OS images simulating outside services against the test instances. They ran the dozen or so OS images on a single frame with VM as the hypervisor. But here's the cool part: they tested code deployment. To test deployment, they would stage a release and test deployment with a copy of the above prod, QA, test, etc. instances, even including a set of vendor simulation instances.

When it was all said and done, at any time they were running virtual machines several layers deep. Cool stuff.

[allpoints]

) Does this count?

Sort of. In my case I had an older OpenSolaris install where it was common for users to run VirtualBox (windows / linux guests) from their Sun Ray Gnome sessions on the server. I wanted to install S11 with minimal downtime.

Ideally, I would have installed a hypervisor on the bare metal, running OpenSolaris on one DomU amd testing the S11 install on another, tweaking S11 until everything was perfect then cutting the users over.

But no, it seems nesting is taboo. ...

Excuse me for interrupting. Have you see this from the OVM people?

http://blogs.oracle.com/jsavit/entry/so ... ed_zone_vm

You can create (nest) zones within this S10 template, as it's a full S10U10 install running on HV with Solaris 11 Dom0.
With one or more of these templates installed in S11, it seems you could implement your nefarious plans without even needing a new BE. Or even a reboot of S11 for that matter....

... It must have been in the early 90s when I visited a large mainframe installation. They were explaining to me that they ran MVS for their new apps and VSE for the older apps. They had several dev, build and test instances of each OS and a slick way to snap the QA instances back to a known state for each testing run. They also had a set of OS images simulating outside services against the test instances. They ran the dozen or so OS images on a single frame with VM as the hypervisor. But here's the cool part: they tested code deployment. To test deployment, they would stage a release and test deployment with a copy of the above prod, QA, test, etc. instances, even including a set of vendor simulation instances.

When it was all said and done, at any time they were running virtual machines several layers deep. Cool stuff.

Inception-tier...sounds like those guys needed to get their utilization rates up, and they were pretty slick about it.
I bet they are all over SDL-type techs now, with dedicated appliances. Probably need a lot less infrastructure too.
It also seems something very similar could be implemented with VBox, given enough of the right consumer-grade hardware, much less big iron...

Since virt is essentially an exercise in translating one set of ones and zeros to another set and placing the translations in appropriate places on time, I see hardware advances making several layers of virtualization as light and transparent on consumer iron as JVMs are now, and I don't have to exercise much vision to do that.

Seems like the tech has been constrained by the hardware for years, no?