(SOLVED) Green Turtle in WinXP guest on VB7.02 Host on Ventura 13.01

Discussions related to using VirtualBox on Mac OS X hosts.
mx507
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(SOLVED) Green Turtle in WinXP guest on VB7.02 Host on Ventura 13.01

Post by mx507 »

Hi there!
I am using a WinXP Guests on OSX ever since VB4.x . Every time Apple releases a new major OS the procedure was the same: upgrade OSx, then upgrade VB, run the VM. Done.

Unfortunately after the most recent Ventura upgrade the VM failed to launch. I uninstalled VB and reinstalled it. Successfully, as the VM launced again. unfortunaltely it was horrible slow so that I killed a couple of oot sequnce s untill I realized that turtle mode exists. Then I realized that I had to manually update the Guest Additions. Those are updated by now, too. However turtle mode remains enabled which effectively makes my VM unusable.
EDIT: I am running OS X ventura 13.0.1 on an Intel based Mac and VB 7.0.2 r154219 (Qt5.15.2); given Apple's TimeMachine I can recall the VM files from before the MacOS upgrade if needed.

I have tweaked nearly all settings of the VM (memory down to 1.5GB, 2 processors, ect.) but nothing scares away the green turtle. I have not tried to either clone the VM or create a new one given that I wanna avoid installing the VM from scratch.

Attached the log-file where around line 523 turtle mode kicks in.

Can someone advise how I can get rid of turtle mode? Keen to learn and will answer questiosn to my best.

Many Thanks!


(EDIT) I deleted the log-file given no issues where found, and thus it does not add value to keep it available including real usernames etc.
(EDIT) Changed title to SOLVED
Last edited by mx507 on 5. Feb 2023, 17:54, edited 2 times in total.
multiOS
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Re: Green Turtle in WinXP guest on VB7.02 Host on Ventura 13.01

Post by multiOS »

I don't see any problems with your XP VM spec in the Log provided, but 'Turtle Mode' identifies that VirtualBox is now being 'forced to use' Apple's Virtualisation Framework (Hypervisor) rather than being able to directly access hardware virtualisation capabilities. Unfortunately, this is a consequence of upgrading to Ventura, which incorporates the Framework by default; and also means that the the Kexts that were previously added when installing the previous versions of VirtualBox are no longer permitted by Apple 'for system security reasons'.

- See https://developer.apple.com/documentati ... ualization for information on Apple's Virtualisation Framework.
- VirtualBox Changelog for 7.0.0 said:
macOS host: Dropped all kernel extensions. VirtualBox relies fully on the hypervisor and vmnet frameworks provided by Apple now.
You will also see from the VirtualBox 7.02 User Guide that Ventura is not yet listed as an officially supported Host System. 7.0.2 was released shortly before the official release macOS Ventura was finalised, but there may also be known compatibility issues still to be resolved as is often the case for many macOS software applications following a major OS upgrade. You may need to wait to see if there is any change when 7.0.4 is released, unless you are able to try the latest '7.0.3 Development Snapshot' available here: https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Testbuilds

Unlike Hyper-V in MS Windows, there is no (known) way of 'turning off' Apple's Virtualisation Framework, so it seems (to me) unlikely be possible to 'get rid of Turtle Mode'; and so it will probably down to what performance level the VirtualBox Devs can extract using Apple's Hypervisor API. Naturally, it is likely to take some time before an optimal level of performance can be achieved, and it will also be necessary to address issues for both Intel and ARM powered macs for as long as Apple continues to provide support for 'old' Intel machines.
fth0
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Re: Green Turtle in WinXP guest on VB7.02 Host on Ventura 13.01

Post by fth0 »

In addition to what multiOS wrote, VirtualBox 7.0.2 only runs in Turtle execution mode, even on macOS versions before Ventura.
mx507
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Re: Green Turtle in WinXP guest on VB7.02 Host on Ventura 13.01

Post by mx507 »

Great thanks @multiOS and @fth0 for investigating and your reply!
multiOS wrote:I don't see any problems with your XP VM spec in the Log provided,
I am pleased to hear that it's seemingly not the VM that caused it - that calms me down as it indicates it's a systematic issue not an individual one
fth0 wrote:In addition to what multiOS wrote, VirtualBox 7.0.2 only runs in Turtle execution mode, even on macOS versions before Ventura.
Fair enough - Cheers; I never faced any issues on any VB version prior to 7.x. Bottom line I frankly do not care about the turtle mode itself - I care about performance :wink:
multiOS wrote:You may need to wait to see if there is any change when 7.0.4 is released, (...) so it seems (to me) unlikely be possible to 'get rid of Turtle Mode'; and so it will probably down to what performance level the VirtualBox Devs can extract using Apple's Hypervisor API.
That effectively makes me think about to roll-back to Monterey and wait from there as the performace under Ventura (for the time beeing) is unfortunately not manageable.
That said (and as I have serached a while, but maybe not efficiently enough) - am I the only one facing such issues or did I research into the wong direction? Queston to me is: How likely is it that the issue is gonna be adressed in any future VB verion.
fth0
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Re: Green Turtle in WinXP guest on VB7.02 Host on Ventura 13.01

Post by fth0 »

mx507 wrote:Bottom line I frankly do not care about the turtle mode itself - I care about performance :wink:
Problem is, the turtle indicates the performance to expect. ;)
mx507 wrote:That said (and as I have serached a while, but maybe not efficiently enough) - am I the only one facing such issues or did I research into the wong direction?
AFAIR, you could be suffering two issues at once: The general performance of VirtualBox 7.0.2 on macOS hosts, and additional problems of Windows XP VMs in that case. The latter could be fixed already for VirtualBox 7.0.4 (in the VirtualBox test builds 7.0.3r154539 and newer).
mx507
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Re: Green Turtle in WinXP guest on VB7.02 Host on Ventura 13.01

Post by mx507 »

fth0 wrote:Problem is, the turtle indicates the performance to expect. ;)
lol - indeed - I know what you're referring to ;-)
ftj0 wrote:(...) could be fixed already for VirtualBox 7.0.4 (in the VirtualBox test builds 7.0.3r154539 and newer).
issue remains, that I do seek for a permanet solution; disableing system security protection is not permanent. I prefer a released version. I could wait some more days but then I will need to roll-back to Monterey and VB6.x. Sadly.
Unfortunately I have no 2nd Intel based Mac available to test this on 7.0.4x - hence I will be stuck in that outadted configuartion for a while.
fth0
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Re: Green Turtle in WinXP guest on VB7.02 Host on Ventura 13.01

Post by fth0 »

I'd expect VirtualBox 7.0.4 to be released in the coming weeks (no ETA, no guarantees ;)). My idea was that you could try 7.0.3 for a short time. If you're problems were addressed, you could wait for 7.0.4. Otherwise, you'd know that you'd have to wait for an undefined longer time.
mx507
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Re: Green Turtle in WinXP guest on VB7.02 Host on Ventura 13.01

Post by mx507 »

I share your view, but I cannot allow myself to test it iut given some other commitments, I have to meet. That's unfortunate, but I have to make that compromise and downgrade the OS now.
Great thanks for your help and kind assistance, fth0!
fth0
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Re: Green Turtle in WinXP guest on VB7.02 Host on Ventura 13.01

Post by fth0 »

You're welcome! :)

FWIW, VirtualBox 7.0.4 was released on 2022-11-18.
mx507
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Re: Green Turtle in WinXP guest on VB7.02 Host on Ventura 13.01

Post by mx507 »

Rolling Back a MacOS is not really streigt forward either. I prepared myself and now have a WIN7 and WIN10 iso :D - I am not relying on WIN XP itself andupgrading the VM to either one of those and installen the needed windws software there would be perfctly fine with me.

I created a new VM and sadly enough it turns out that even wothout an OS installed the turtle mode is on.
See log attached.

I am afrraid I have to wait for 7.0.4 and keep my fingers crossed that it will support Windows (for me).
Attachments
Windows7-2022-11-27-11-01-28.log.zip
(19.83 KiB) Downloaded 39 times
fth0
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Re: Green Turtle in WinXP guest on VB7.02 Host on Ventura 13.01

Post by fth0 »

mx507 wrote:I created a new VM and sadly enough it turns out that even wothout an OS installed the turtle mode is on.
Your statement seems to indicate that you haven't understood parts of what has been discussed in this thread. To reiterate some key points:

VirtualBox 7 does not (and most probably will not) use macOS kernel extensions (VT-x/AMD-V) any more, and uses the Apple Hypervisor framework (NEM, Turtle mode) instead. This is independent of the macOS version (Catalina+) on the host and also independent of the guest OS.

You can only hope for the turtle to get faster. ;)
mx507
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Re: Green Turtle in WinXP guest on VB7.02 Host on Ventura 13.01

Post by mx507 »

you are right, indeed - I did not understand that. Great thanks for clarifying this for me and: finger crossed ;-)
Dangermouse
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Re: Green Turtle in WinXP guest on VB7.02 Host on Ventura 13.01

Post by Dangermouse »

I have found Vbox 7 to be excruciatingly slow running a Windows XP VM on a 2019 intel iMac.
Luckily I tried it out some time ago before I attempted to update to Ventura !
Anyway, I've found that the problem seems to be I/O APIC. For some reason Vbox 7 can't do this without using 100% CPU (in both the host and guest) and running 100x slower than Vbox 6.
I found some advice on this forum viewtopic.php?t=21480 on how to disable I/O APIC (you must change the drivers in the Windows Guest first).
Now my Windows XP VM runs at least as fast in Vbox7 as it did in Vbox6 with I/O APIC enabled, and I will brave updating to Ventura !
The process is :
Boot the Guest OS
Go to Device Manager, and click on "Computers"~>
Select the Properties of ACPI Uniprocessor PC ~>
Click on the Driver tab, select Update Driver, ~>
Click on the "Install from list or specific location"~>
Click "don't search I will choose what driver to install" ~>
In the window find and click on "Advanced Power and Configuration Interface (ACPI) PC" then click next ~>
Click "finish" after Windows loads the new drivers. You may need your CD.(I didn't)~>
Now click Close to exit those property pages, Windows will tell you to Reboot. DO NOT REBOOT! SHUTDOWN THE GUEST
Now, before next booting the guest, turn off "Enable I/O APIC" in SETTINGS - SYSTEM in the Vboc Manager.
I hope it works as well for you as it does for me.
Last edited by scottgus1 on 20. Dec 2022, 20:47, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: activated forum link
mx507
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Re: Green Turtle in WinXP guest on VB7.02 Host on Ventura 13.01

Post by mx507 »

@Dangermouse: GREAT THANKS !
Dangermouse wrote: I hope it works as well for you as it does for me.
Quite frustrated I did not revisit the forum since November and I somehow got to accept that the VM is horrably slow. But it was annoying each week. I only returned today and immediately tried and: tata .... your hint does make my WinXP behave as performat as it didi before the upgragde to VB7/Ventura. Thank you very, very much.

PS: Just one note that I realized when applying the settings: When I turned off "Enable I/O APIC" in SETTINGS - SYSTEM in the Vboc Manager 7 it told me "incorrect setting". I could Confirm with OK but actualyl the settingw as not changed. After I reduced the VM processors to 1 one the processors Sub-Tab I could permanetently disable I/O APIC Setting.

Great thanks again!
avu2
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Re: (SOLVED) Green Turtle in WinXP guest on VB7.02 Host on Ventura 13.01

Post by avu2 »

Another happy guest Windows XP user on Ventura 13.2/VB 7.0.6/iMac2020/Intel i5.

In my case I needed also to configure the VB > System > Chipset = PIIX3 (was ICH9) to disable IO-APIC and reboot XP with the new chipset drivers. XP is as fast as the guest Mac OS despite the turtle.

Great !
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