VirtualBox and Hyper-V

Discussions related to using VirtualBox on Windows hosts.
mpack
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Re: VirtualBox and Hyper-V

Post by mpack »

You should express that hope to Microsoft, since only they can choose to make VT-x available to other applications.
 Edit:  Ah, sorry. I didn't realize that you had changed the subject from Hyper-v (per the topic title) to "Windows Hypervisor Platform". I assume that the latter is Hyper-v, but allowing other applications to access the Hyper-v background manager. I'm not sure what the advantage of that would be... ISTM it wouldn't be VirtualBox any longer, and it wouldn't be a cross platform solution, but perhaps the devs will see things otherwise. 
Spark1292
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Re: VirtualBox and Hyper-V

Post by Spark1292 »

With the new 1803 build of Windows, a new version of Edge that runs in a container (under Hyper-V) has been introduced to the Professional SKU. When you have this new Application Guard enabled, Hyper-V will always be on. Even if you do the BCDEDIT trick, Windows will re-enable Hyper-V if you have Application Guard. As build 1803 rolls out, I would envision that there will be more and more pressure to modify VirtualBox to run with Hyper-V.

There is now a new Windows Hypervisor Platform feature that will let hypervisors like VirtualBox run under Hyper-V. Changes have already been submitted for QEMU. If you look at the change set, it's not too traumatic. One thing to note is that a Microsoft employee submitted the changes and the QEMU team was accepting of the changes, so it may not be as simple for VirtualBox.

As a developer, I'm pretty locked into Hyper-V for Android and Docker support. I'm not really a fan of the Hyper-V Enhanced Session (RDP) mode. And that's only available for Windows, so running Linux under Hyper-V doesn't provide sound and the graphics drivers appear to be better under VirtualBox.

Having the ability to run VirtualBox under (or along with) Hyper-V is indeed a valid business case. I have to run Hyper-V. But I want to run VirtualBox too. Today, I cannot. Getting VirtualBox to support the Windows Hypervisor Platform would be spectacular.
socratis
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Re: VirtualBox and Hyper-V

Post by socratis »

Spark1292 wrote:a new version of Edge that runs in a container (under Hyper-V) has been introduced to the Professional SKU.
Another one? Geez...

Truth of the matter is that everybody and their cousin realized that virtualization is a powerful tool. And pretty much every OS developer came up with a solution at the kernel level (Hyper-V for Windows, Hypervisor Framework for OSX, KVM for Linux, others?) so that applications that need to use a virtualization solution can work in the user space, not in the kernel.

What's the problem specifically with Hyper-V? It's selfish. Plain and simple. While every other virtualization solution can be run concurrently with VirtualBox (or VMWare, or Parallels, or...) Hyper-V doesn't allow that. And that's because it takes over the VT-x capabilities and doesn't let go (that's the "selfish" part).

In the days of early multitasking, applications were taking turns in using the CPU and the rest of the resources on a computer. They were playing "nice". There were those pests that refused to share, and didn't really give a damn. That's what Hyper-V does for virtualization (VT-x).
Spark1292 wrote:There is now a new Windows Hypervisor Platform feature that will let hypervisors like VirtualBox run under Hyper-V.
At what price? Have you compared speeds? Can you tweak the hypervisor at its foundation, or are you left at the mercy of Microsoft? In a closed-source environment? Can you guarantee that Hyper-V won't be choosing which virtualization platform it won't sabotage? Have you heard of the browser wars?
Spark1292 wrote:running Linux under Hyper-V doesn't provide sound and the graphics drivers
See above about the "tweaking the virtualization core" and being selective about where attention/priorities are focused.
Spark1292 wrote:Having the ability to run VirtualBox under (or along with) Hyper-V is indeed a valid business case.
For you, maybe. For Oracle? How does your business case translate into the many months of work that might need to transition from "kernel A" to "kernel B". Because that's what it boils down to; changing the foundation of how virtualization is done. What's left then? The management of the VMs at a top level?

If such a move were to be implemented, I can guarantee you that after using the "Hyper-V enabled VirtualBox" (did I just coin a new term?), you'll uninstall Hyper-V and go with a pure VirtualBox solution. Or another pure solution.
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Martin
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Re: VirtualBox and Hyper-V

Post by Martin »

Hyper-V is "selfish" because it pushes the user facing part of Windows to run inside a VM.
So everything you try to do on a system with Hyper-V activated will be out of a VM, therefore nested virtualization.
socratis
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Re: VirtualBox and Hyper-V

Post by socratis »

Just to be clear; it *is* a nested virtualization issue. But from the Hyper-V point of view. It's Hyper-V that doesn't allow VT-x. Even if VirtualBox get a nested-virtualization feature, it won't help in that case.
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mpack
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Re: VirtualBox and Hyper-V

Post by mpack »

Martin wrote:Hyper-V is "selfish" because it pushes the user facing part of Windows to run inside a VM.
So everything you try to do on a system with Hyper-V activated will be out of a VM, therefore nested virtualization.
While that is an issue, it is a separate issue. VMWare ESX has a role which is similar to Hyper-v, except that ESX does make VT-x available to the guest OS. Hence it would be technically possible (on that point alone) to have a fully functional VirtualBox host software running inside an ESX VM - but it's still not supported. And if that's all that "Windows Hypervisor Platform" does then the same would apply.
gvollant
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Re: VirtualBox and Hyper-V

Post by gvollant »

there is another topic here

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=88013
rseiler
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Re: VirtualBox and Hyper-V

Post by rseiler »

Does the upcoming major release of VB change the equation at all, particularly relative to Windows Hypervisor Platform?

This Sandbox feature is on the horizon for Win10, too, increasing the desirability of co-existence without hoop-jumping.
https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/ ... a-p/301849
socratis
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Re: VirtualBox and Hyper-V

Post by socratis »

rseiler wrote:Does the upcoming major release of VB change the equation at all, particularly relative to Windows Hypervisor Platform?
If by "upcoming", you mean 6.0.0, then it's not upcoming any more. It was released one day before your post! And yes, it does make changes regarding Hyper-V. More information in the VirtualBox 6.0 released thread and in the User Manual...
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rseiler
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Re: VirtualBox and Hyper-V

Post by rseiler »

It was a matter of hours (I wasn't watching the page 24x7), and I've since seen the one new line there mentioning Hyper-V, but it's a bit cryptic. My guess is that it will co-exist now, but at a performance penalty, for one or the other. Is there more than a sentence on that particular subject? I searched the manual, too, but other than a repeat of the changelog didn't see anything on this particular new twist.
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