VirtualBox slow as a 286

Discussions related to using VirtualBox on Windows hosts.
NoNameNeeded
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Re: VirtualBox slow as a 286

Post by NoNameNeeded »

Update:
I did deactivate shellfolderfix now just to see if it makes any difference.

But no, Win10 in VBox is just as slow as before.
fth0
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Re: VirtualBox slow as a 286

Post by fth0 »

fth0 wrote:Additionally, they have no valid Authenticode signatures, making them untrustworthy software.
NoNameNeeded wrote:And no, neither classic shell nor shellfolderfix is "untrustworthy" software.
Perhaps I should elaborate a bit on what I meant with "untrustworthy":

Microsoft and many other companies providing Windows applications use Authenticode digital signatures to prove the authenticity and integrity of their software by default, thereby creating a certain level of trust. In contrast, unsigned software could be modified by an adversary on the download server or on your computer before and after its installation unnoticed. In consequence, you cannot trust that the software you're using is the same software that its author created.

Windows 10 has a lot of security mechanisms, and by default it uses a kind of middle level of security for ubiquitous compatibility. Some of the higher level security mechanisms would reject unsigned software when enabled. With Windows 11, Microsoft tries to introduce a higher level of security by enabling some of the higher level security mechanisms on new installations by default.

VirtualBox only has one security level and strives to keep it high enough that malware inside a guest OS cannot infiltrate the host OS. This security level is for example achieved by disallowing unsigned software to invade the address space of VirtualBox. Of course VirtualBox doesn't prevent you from using unsigned software that keeps itself outside of the VirtualBox address space.
scottgus1
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Re: VirtualBox slow as a 286

Post by scottgus1 »

In addition to fth0's thoughts, please provide a VM log of the 10 VM with the modifications that have been suggested.
NoNameNeeded
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Re: VirtualBox slow as a 286

Post by NoNameNeeded »

fth0 wrote: Microsoft and many other companies providing Windows applications use Authenticode digital signatures to prove the authenticity and integrity of their software by default, thereby creating a certain level of trust. In contrast, unsigned software could be modified by an adversary on the download server or on your computer before and after its installation unnoticed. In consequence, you cannot trust that the software you're using is the same software that its author created.
More and more malware uses digital signatures as well. So digital signatures don't seem to create a very high level of trust. Just saying...
https://www.trendmicro.com/en_us/resear ... aigns.html
fth0 wrote: Windows 10 has a lot of security mechanisms, and by default it uses a kind of middle level of security for ubiquitous compatibility. Some of the higher level security mechanisms would reject unsigned software when enabled. With Windows 11, Microsoft tries to introduce a higher level of security by enabling some of the higher level security mechanisms on new installations by default.
Ok, but the Win 10 installation is brand new with no unsigned software installed so why would what you described affect the performance in VBox?
fth0 wrote: VirtualBox only has one security level and strives to keep it high enough that malware inside a guest OS cannot infiltrate the host OS. This security level is for example achieved by disallowing unsigned software to invade the address space of VirtualBox. Of course VirtualBox doesn't prevent you from using unsigned software that keeps itself outside of the VirtualBox address space.
But I don't think that's the way to go because there are thousands of unsigned software products that people use on their PCs so if one of them enters the address space of VBox it's prone to cause problems.
No good solution, if you ask me.
On top of that, VBox doesn't become more secure by doing whatever it does. It just slows down the virtual machine tremendously. That doesn't improve security at all.
Unless the VBox devs thought that people would soon be so sick and tired of the poor performance of VBox that they stop using it altogether and thereby avoid security issues caused by VBox...;)
vboxlog.zip
(157.01 KiB) Downloaded 6 times
scottgus1
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Re: VirtualBox slow as a 286

Post by scottgus1 »

Not to steal fth0's fire, but I'll point out that you're still using the old video card and 3D is still not enabled. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=106321#p519618

Please also note that we on this forum are not the devs and have no say in how Virtualbox is programmed. We are experimenting, so an idea we express may not fix the problem yet. Please be patient with us, we are fellow end users of Virtualbox and we are trying to help.
NoNameNeeded
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Re: VirtualBox slow as a 286

Post by NoNameNeeded »

Oh, I didn't mean to offend anyone here in any way!

I know you're not the devs.

It's just that I'm not very happy with VBox, can't say I ever was.
In my experience it's an extremely unreliable piece of software.
It's for free so that's ok in a way but still not very satisfying.

I've switched back to the VGA card and I've also deactivated 3D again. I didn't ignore your advice, it just turned out to slow VBox down even more.
fth0
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Re: VirtualBox slow as a 286

Post by fth0 »

NoNameNeeded wrote:More and more malware uses digital signatures as well. So digital signatures don't seem to create a very high level of trust. Just saying...
AV software (or so-called security software) also uses digital signatures, and I don't trust that either. ;)
NoNameNeeded wrote:Ok, but the Win 10 installation is brand new with no unsigned software installed so why would what you described affect the performance in VBox?
I'm talking about the host, where you're using Windows 2008 R2 according to your log files, and where you were running the unsigned softwares. On the host, VirtualBox competes with all other programs for the host resources, so everything can happen.
NoNameNeeded wrote:It just slows down the virtual machine tremendously.
That's your interpretation, not mine. VirtualBox runs quite fast for the majority of users (e.g. with 80% - 95% of native speed in my own setups).
Windows 10-2022-06-21-19-53-05.log wrote:
00:01:18.131693 AsyncCompletion: Task 0x000000f8fc5700 completed after 10 seconds
00:01:18.131777 AsyncCompletion: Task 0x000000f8fc56c0 completed after 10 seconds
00:01:18.145063 AsyncCompletion: Task 0x000000f8fc5640 completed after 10 seconds
While most of your newest log files do not indicate any problem to me, one of them does. Those AsyncCompletion log messages are rarely seen, but often indicated disk I/O problems on the host side in the past. Perhaps something worth checking. If you have a fast external SSD available, you could move the VM there for a test.
NoNameNeeded
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Re: VirtualBox slow as a 286

Post by NoNameNeeded »

Hmmm...
I still don't get it:
You wrote...
Windows 10 has a lot of security mechanisms, and by default it uses a kind of middle level of security for ubiquitous compatibility. Some of the higher level security mechanisms would reject unsigned software when enabled. With Windows 11, Microsoft tries to introduce a higher level of security by enabling some of the higher level security mechanisms on new installations by default.
... and I told you that the (virtual) Windows 10 is brand new and there is no unsigned software installed (Firefox has a digital signature) and now you tell me you're talking about the host OS.
But as you know Windows 10 isn't my host OS.
And the virtual Windows 10 (the guest) doesn't know anything about the host OS.
So I'm a little confused here.
That's your interpretation, not mine. VirtualBox runs quite fast for the majority of users (e.g. with 80% - 95% of native speed in my own setups).
Well, if Firefox takes about 2 minutes to start and lot one (!) tab that's quite slow in my book.
I do know, though, that virtual machines run slower than the host OS, that's just normal but my Vbox Windows 10 just crawls, it doesn't run.
Those AsyncCompletion log messages are rarely seen, but often indicated disk I/O problems on the host side in the past. Perhaps something worth checking. If you have a fast external SSD available, you could move the VM there for a test.
I don't have an external SSD but an internal one. I might try to copy the virtual machine's hard disk to the SSD. This would make it faster, of course, if I find enough space on the SSD.

I hope there's nothing wrong with the hard disk, though, it's only 2 years old (not quite) so it really shouldn't have any problems.
And it would also be strange that let's say bad sectors are only where the vdi is stored.
NoNameNeeded
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Re: VirtualBox slow as a 286

Post by NoNameNeeded »

Well, of yourse VirtualBox being VirtualBox I can't use a copy of the virtual hard disk because...

Cannot register the hard disk 'D:\Windows 10.vdi' {328a4af0-ca48-4c7a-ba1f-78bcfefe911b} because a hard disk 'C:\Users\xy\VirtualBox VMs\Windows 10\Windows 10.vdi' with UUID {328a4af0-ca48-4c7a-ba1f-78bcfefe911b} already exists.

Update:
Now I've found the "proper" way to do this (the "move" option) but guess what: It doesn't work.
Unknown exception
F:\tinderbox\win-6.0\out\win.amd64\release\obj\VBoxAPIWrap\MachineWrap.cpp[9775] (long __cdecl MachineWrap::MoveTo(unsigned short *,unsigned short *,struct IProgress **)).


Result Code:
E_FAIL (0x80004005)
Component:
SessionMachine
Interface:
IMachine {5047460a-265d-4538-b23e-ddba5fb84976}
And the second method (moving the vdi with virtual disk manager) kind of semi-freezes the whole computer, sitting at 0%.
All I can do is to abort the operation.

What a piece of crap.
Incredible.
Last edited by NoNameNeeded on 22. Jun 2022, 03:40, edited 2 times in total.
BillG
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Re: VirtualBox slow as a 286

Post by BillG »

Which raises the question - why are you running Windows 2008 R2 as your host? It is way out of even extended Microsoft warranty.
Bill
fth0
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Re: VirtualBox slow as a 286

Post by fth0 »

NoNameNeeded wrote:I still don't get it [...] So I'm a little confused here.
My explanation of my use of the word "untrustworthy" wasn't meant only for you, but for all readers of this thread. I used Windows 10 + 11 as examples of OSes that have a certain level of trust nowadays. I couldn't use Windows 2008 R2 as an example, because it didn't get security updates for some time now and therefore can be treated as not secure any more. Additionally, it's missing the newer security mechanisms developed during the last 10 years.
NoNameNeeded wrote:Well, if Firefox takes about 2 minutes to start and lot one (!) tab that's quite slow in my book.
I'd agree to that. The general problem is that your issue isn't really comparable (at least not yet) to known issues other users have reported, so it still looks like a single user's case. Don't fall in the trap to think that multiple users reporting "slow VMs" automatically means they're experiencing the same cause. Only the symptoms are similar, and there can be a lot of possible causes for that.

Generally speaking, I'd suggest to investigate on your host what's taking the time ...
scottgus1
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Re: VirtualBox slow as a 286

Post by scottgus1 »

fth0 wrote:Generally speaking, I'd suggest to investigate on your host what's taking the time ...
If I may offer a suggestion on how to do this:

On a weekend when the host can be experimented on, switch in a different host OS drive. Install the 2008 r2 OS and Virtualbox only. Don't install updates or any other software, including the classic shell and shellfolderfix. Only the OS and Virtualbox.

Make a fresh new Windows 10 VM. Set it to 3GB RAM and 2 processors. Leave everything else on default (including the default VboxSVGA video card). Start the VM and install 10. When 10 is installed, disable the transparency, then shut 10 down. Enable 3D, then start 10 and install the Guest Additions. Shut down and restart (not reboot) 10 twice. Now, when 10 is started with 3D, watch the 10 Task Manager until it settles down. 10 may be hunting updates and being unsettled for the next several hours. You'll have to wait on this test until updating is finished. Then install and try Firefox.

If this new fresh VM performance is decent, then the slowness of the original VM is either from something in the old VM or on the old host OS. We can't guess what, however. You might try the old VM as well, just to see if it gets better on the test new host OS. Note that if the VM is on a spinning platter drive it will be slower than if the VM is on an SSD.

If performance of the new VM is still bad, please don't change anything in it. Shut it down and zip/post the VM and hardening logs, please.
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