TPM

Discussions about using Windows guests in VirtualBox.
mpack
Site Moderator
Posts: 39156
Joined: 4. Sep 2008, 17:09
Primary OS: MS Windows 10
VBox Version: PUEL
Guest OSses: Mostly XP

Re: TPM

Post by mpack »

When I use the word "requirement", enforcement is implicit. It isn't a requirement if it isn't required.

Looking at the Win10 "requirements", it says that TPMv2 must be implemented and enabled by default in PCs made after a certain date (how does it know the mfr date? Implied by CPU choice?). "By default" implies that it can be disabled by user choice, which then raises the obvious question - if Win10 can start without it then it isn't a requirement.

I didn't look at Win11 requirements since I don't plan to use Win11 until others have worked the kinks out. Unless MS wants to pay for my time of course.
mpack
Site Moderator
Posts: 39156
Joined: 4. Sep 2008, 17:09
Primary OS: MS Windows 10
VBox Version: PUEL
Guest OSses: Mostly XP

Re: TPM

Post by mpack »

I just noticed that all this discussion is taking place in the "Suggestions" forum, which is not the correct place for it. I'll move it to "Windows Guests".
fth0
Volunteer
Posts: 5668
Joined: 14. Feb 2019, 03:06
Primary OS: Mac OS X other
VBox Version: PUEL
Guest OSses: Linux, Windows 10, ...
Location: Germany

Re: TPM

Post by fth0 »

mpack wrote:When I use the word "requirement", enforcement is implicit.
Even "enforcement" can take different forms: Consider the PC manufacturers that wanted to sell PCs with a Windows sticker and Windows 10 pre-installed after 2016. In consequence, the majority of PCs sold in the last 4 years will probably have a TPM 2.0 (either as a chip or as a UEFI firmware TPM, both fulfills Microsoft's "requirements" AFAIU). But let's not focus on Windows 10 too much.
BillG
Volunteer
Posts: 5102
Joined: 19. Sep 2009, 04:44
Primary OS: MS Windows 10
VBox Version: PUEL
Guest OSses: Windows 10,7 and earlier
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: TPM

Post by BillG »

fth0 wrote:Well, yes and no. IMHO, a TPM 2.0 is a requirement for physical hardware, but not for virtual machines. Download the Windows 11 minimum hardware requirements document linked within Windows minimum hardware requirements, and especially read chapter 5, which is about virtual machines.
I agree. Since that document states that the minimum hardware requirements are not enforced during an install or upgrade of Windows 11 on a virtual device, we should be able to move a vm to Windows 11 and decide if the performance suits our needs. I will certainly give that a try when Windows 11 is released.
Bill
mpack
Site Moderator
Posts: 39156
Joined: 4. Sep 2008, 17:09
Primary OS: MS Windows 10
VBox Version: PUEL
Guest OSses: Mostly XP

Re: TPM

Post by mpack »

fth0 wrote:But let's not focus on Windows 10 too much.
Let's not lose sight that the OP mentioned TPM and Win10, so both are on topic, more so than Win11 in fact. I'm allowing the discussion to include Win11 since I suspect it's just a marketing term for the next Win10 feature update.
BillG
Volunteer
Posts: 5102
Joined: 19. Sep 2009, 04:44
Primary OS: MS Windows 10
VBox Version: PUEL
Guest OSses: Windows 10,7 and earlier
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: TPM

Post by BillG »

That again is a yes and no thing. Under the hood, I suspect Windows 11 will be almost exactly the same as Windows 10 21H2, which is also due any day (and will not be much different to the latest Insider build). That does not mean Windows 11 will have the same look and feel or the same hardware restrictions. If Microsoft keep to their current timetable for Insiders, we will know later this week.
Bill
krafty11
Posts: 2
Joined: 25. Jun 2021, 21:59

Re: TPM

Post by krafty11 »

BillG wrote:
fth0 wrote:Well, yes and no. IMHO, a TPM 2.0 is a requirement for physical hardware, but not for virtual machines. Download the Windows 11 minimum hardware requirements document linked within Windows minimum hardware requirements, and especially read chapter 5, which is about virtual machines.
I agree. Since that document states that the minimum hardware requirements are not enforced during an install or upgrade of Windows 11 on a virtual device, we should be able to move a vm to Windows 11 and decide if the performance suits our needs. I will certainly give that a try when Windows 11 is released.
Good catch, thanks for pointing that out, I have an upgrade install going now on a Windows 10 guest with EFI enabled (I'm not sure even that is needed though)
trlkly
Posts: 5
Joined: 13. Jun 2012, 13:07

Re: TPM

Post by trlkly »

fth0 wrote:
mpack wrote:Is it definitely going to be needed for Win11?
mpack wrote:Because that would exclude Win11 from running on a bunch of older PCs.
That will already be enforced by the CPU requirement (e.g. Intel 8th gen. CPUs). See Windows Processor Requirements for the details.
Unlikely. The same link says that Windows 10 20H2 requires a 5th gen Intel CPU, which I currently run on an i7-2600. Heck, I previously upgraded to Windows 10 1909 on a Core2Duo.

The requirements that Microsoft has stated publicly is a 1.0Ghz 2-core CPU. I'm honestly not sure what those links mean, given that they are inaccurate for Windows 10.
fth0
Volunteer
Posts: 5668
Joined: 14. Feb 2019, 03:06
Primary OS: Mac OS X other
VBox Version: PUEL
Guest OSses: Linux, Windows 10, ...
Location: Germany

Re: TPM

Post by fth0 »

Agreed. Ultimately, that means Windows 11 will run on the (physical or virtual) hardware that it will run on, no more, no less. Anything else is speculation, based on whatever Microsoft documentation is there available. And even the released Windows 11 itself will be updated continuously, so there is no guarantee for anything. ;)
BillG
Volunteer
Posts: 5102
Joined: 19. Sep 2009, 04:44
Primary OS: MS Windows 10
VBox Version: PUEL
Guest OSses: Windows 10,7 and earlier
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: TPM

Post by BillG »

Yep. The Windows 11 specs state that only 8th generation Intel Core processors and higher are acceptable, but my Insider i-7 7700 was offered the preview version so that Insiders can assess how Windows 11 runs on hardware not on the list. I wonder what other restrictions have been waived for Insider previews.

I suspect that initially they are only allowing hardware they have actually used in their testing. Things may change later.
Last edited by BillG on 1. Jul 2021, 01:26, edited 1 time in total.
Bill
andreyyshore
Posts: 3
Joined: 30. Jun 2021, 08:01
Primary OS: MS Windows 10
VBox Version: PUEL
Guest OSses: Windows 11

Re: TPM

Post by andreyyshore »

VirtualBox's lack of TPM support prevents you from installing the W11 dev build via Windows Update in a VM running W10.

I also can't find W11 builds on Microsoft's Insider ISO page (only up to W10 Redstone 1 are available in my case), so I'm doomed to either use Hyper-V (painfully slow, but the dev build does show up), VMware Workstation Pro (which costs money) or use some random ISO from the Internet.
mpack
Site Moderator
Posts: 39156
Joined: 4. Sep 2008, 17:09
Primary OS: MS Windows 10
VBox Version: PUEL
Guest OSses: Mostly XP

Re: TPM

Post by mpack »

andreyyshore wrote:VirtualBox's lack of TPM support prevents you from installing the W11 dev build via Windows Update in a VM running W10.
Sez who? Reference please. Your statement seems to directly contradict Microsoft's official "in a VM" requirements already quoted above.
andreyyshore
Posts: 3
Joined: 30. Jun 2021, 08:01
Primary OS: MS Windows 10
VBox Version: PUEL
Guest OSses: Windows 11

Re: TPM

Post by andreyyshore »

I say it because I've tried it.
BillG
Volunteer
Posts: 5102
Joined: 19. Sep 2009, 04:44
Primary OS: MS Windows 10
VBox Version: PUEL
Guest OSses: Windows 10,7 and earlier
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: TPM

Post by BillG »

andreyyshore wrote:
I also can't find W11 builds on Microsoft's Insider ISO page (only up to W10 Redstone 1 are available in my case)
That does not surprise me. Most beta builds are only available as updates to Insiders. ISO releases are rare.
Bill
BillG
Volunteer
Posts: 5102
Joined: 19. Sep 2009, 04:44
Primary OS: MS Windows 10
VBox Version: PUEL
Guest OSses: Windows 10,7 and earlier
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: TPM

Post by BillG »

andreyyshore wrote:I say it because I've tried it.
Did it specifically state that lack of TPM 2.0 was the cause? Does it meet the basic Windows 11 specs of 2 cores, 64 GB disk and 4 GB RAM?
Last edited by BillG on 1. Jul 2021, 09:20, edited 2 times in total.
Bill
Locked