[Feature removed] No snapshot restore on power off any more?

Temporary forum to discuss issues and problems during a VirtualBox Beta or Release Candidate phase.
fth0
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Re: [Feature removed] No snapshot restore on power off any more?

Post by fth0 »

birdie wrote:What was zero clicks away previously, now requires multiple actions.
I'm not sure if I understand your workflow, but before asking, I'll describe mine:

When I've finished creating a new VM "Test" for testing purposes in VirtualBox 6.1, I create a snapshot called "Base". On the next VM run, I enable the checkbox when powering off the VM for the first time. On subsequent VM runs, the checkbox is already enabled, and I regularly use "Power Off" to return to the snapshot. If I make changes to the VM that I want to keep (e.g. monthly Linux or Windows updates), I shutdown the VM from within the guest OS, delete/merge the old snapshot and create a new snapshot "Base".

With VirtualBox 7.0, I'd use VBoxManage setextradata "Test" GUI/DiscardStateOnPowerOff 1 instead of enabling the checkbox, but also only once.

What's your workflow and why does it get more complicated than before?
klaus
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Re: [Feature removed] No snapshot restore on power off any more?

Post by klaus »

fth0's workflow is exactly what we had in mind originally, but then came multiple complaints that people forgot to untick it on poweroff, losing data.

The words "data loss" in a bug report makes all alarms go off at Oracle. Don't forget that reliable storage of data is historically the core of many Oracle products. If we then say that the data loss was due to user error then someone will apply pressure that the source of this user error is removed. Just trying to get the logic across. Not expecting condolences :wink:
fth0
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Re: [Feature removed] No snapshot restore on power off any more?

Post by fth0 »

klaus wrote:If we then say that the data loss was due to user error then someone will apply pressure that the source of this user error is removed.
Good idea, remove the user! SCNR ;)

PS: @birdie: I didn't mean you, of course! :)
birdie
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Re: [Feature removed] No snapshot restore on power off any more?

Post by birdie »

I hear all the wrong reasons to remove the feature, so let me give all the reasons why it worked before, why it was never an issue and why the current "Edit a config file manually" approach is wrong:

1) Absolute most people don't use the VM shutdown feature. They press "Start -> Shutdown" in whatever guest OS they are using instead. Using a VM shutdown dialog in just not as convenient.
2) The checkbox is in your face. It's not hidden, it's right there and it's hard not to notice it. People who were burnt by pressing it accidentally maybe did it once in their entire life. I cannot imagine making this mistake more than once.
3) Now instead of a UI feature, I need to edit a config file and then remember the discard feature is enabled. WTF? What if I use it the feature intermittently? I.e. I need it today but I don't need it tomorrow? Go edit the config file again and again? Really??
4) It literally takes a couple of lines of code to hide it by default from all the users and have it enabled only for those who want to use it.

Now, whenever I want to discard the last state of a guest, I need to switch it off, go to snapshot management and hit all the right buttons (an extra ten buttons if you had your guest on any other mode, e.g. Details vs Spapshot management). Multiple actions which were available as a single click of a mouse earlier.

Your UI team is doing all the wrong stuff it seams.

Here's what you could have done instead: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=106906 - not a single comment from anyone on the team, meanwhile the guest menu is a total incomprehensible illogical mess.

Also the main actions switcher under the main menu (Welcome, Extensions, Media, etc) terribly sucks.
Also the guest actions pop-up menu is terribly inconvenient (Details, Snapshot, Logs, Activity, File Manager). Why is it hidden by default BTW? Why it's only visible on mouse hover on?

People have 1080p, 1440p, dual monitors configurations - you cram everything such a way you need to constantly mouse click, click, click.

The guest actions are all easy to show on the screen simultaneously or make them some sort of tabs. A single click to switch between tabs.

Likewise for the the main actions switcher - why, why, there's a drop-down menu where there's so much space on the screen? VBox is a desktop application and it now looks like the worst UI-wise mobile app.

I presume you have designers/managers on your team who have to make stuff up to get salaries and in the end we get a horrible usability-wise UI where you need to click often while making sure your mouse movements are precise. This is nightmare.

UI in VBox 5 was a ton more easier, faster and more effective to navigate.

VBox 7 is the absolute worst in terms of UI (I started using VBox around version 3 I guess) and of course user input is not necessary because "managers" and "designers". Have these people formally run any usability tests? I doubt it. Something was designed as "cool" and "modern" and poor programmers bent under because they had no choice.


Of course this salty rational logical message will never reach the responsible people. Not the first time. The PC software industry has done everything to destroy usability over the past 15 years, starting with an abomination called Windows 8.
fth0
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Re: [Feature removed] No snapshot restore on power off any more?

Post by fth0 »

birdie wrote:Now instead of a UI feature, I need to edit a config file and then remember the discard feature is enabled. WTF? What if I use it the feature intermittently? I.e. I need it today but I don't need it tomorrow?
Are you saying that "tomorrow" you would use the "Power off" radio button without restoring the previous snapshot, knowing that it could damage the guest OS installation? Do you also power off your host by pulling the power plug from the socket? Just trying to understand. ;)

Instead of editing the config file, you could script the corresponding VBoxManage command. From within a script, you could even change the Description of the VM, which is shown in the Details pane. But thats just my 2c.
birdie
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Re: [Feature removed] No snapshot restore on power off any more?

Post by birdie »

fth0 wrote:
birdie wrote:Now instead of a UI feature, I need to edit a config file and then remember the discard feature is enabled. WTF? What if I use it the feature intermittently? I.e. I need it today but I don't need it tomorrow?
Are you saying that "tomorrow" you would use the "Power off" radio button without restoring the previous snapshot, knowing that it could damage the guest OS installation? Do you also power off your host by pulling the power plug from the socket? Just trying to understand. ;)
The power off dialog has a "Send the [ACPI] shutdown signal". I've no f clue what you're talking about and why you're mocking me. I've never talked about or implied any intentional ways to damage the guest.
fth0 wrote:Instead of editing the config file, you could script the corresponding VBoxManage command. From within a script, you could even change the Description of the VM, which is shown in the Details pane. But thats just my 2c.
Even more insanity. Very pertinent in regard to the state of VBox 7 UI: "Let's totally irreversibly f it up and make people use scripting. Let's make UI and program features as hard as possible to discover and use. Oh, and let's remove something people used all the time because some rare people couldn't be bothered to pay a modicum of attention".

VBox 7 UI is nearly total crap, sorry.

I rest my case, your honor.
fth0
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Re: [Feature removed] No snapshot restore on power off any more?

Post by fth0 »

As I wrote, I'm just trying to understand your use case, but you seem to have difficulties to explain that to me. Admittedly, it could be a problem on my end.

My thoughts were as follows: In my own workflows, I have the checkbox always on for testing VMs and always off for production VMs. You, on the other hand, indicated that you use the checkbox sometimes on and sometimes off on the same VM. Since the checkbox is a modifier to only the 3rd radio button labeled "Power off", this means that you regularly power off the VM, which is the analogy to pulling a power plug on a physical PC, and alway has the potential to damage the VM. Did I misunderstand your workflow?

PS: You know that I'm only a fellow VirtualBox user and not affiliated to Oracle or the VirtualBox development, don't you?
RickGa
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Re: [Feature removed] No snapshot restore on power off any more?

Post by RickGa »

We use this feature in our workflow as well testing malware propagation in various virtual machines running as sandboxes. Nothing so easy as closing the VM and restoring the previous snapshot and starting over with the next test set. It's really sad that it's gone (from the GUI). Sure, there's a VBoxManage flag we can turn on but that has to be done at everyone's workstation under everyone's account. Removing the GUI option is a really odd move.
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Re: [Feature removed] No snapshot restore on power off any more?

Post by mpack »

Thanks for your feedback, but beta testing is now completed.
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