Keyboard in NetWare 6.5sp8 is non-functional

[Kumba]

It is basically impossible to install a NetWare 6.5 SP8 Guest on VBox 4.0.12 right now. The keyboard emulation seems to be totally fubar. I am seeing several other topics about the keyboard being messed up on MS-DOS, so I suspect that the same emulation issues are affecting a NetWare Guest. The biggest issue is the arrow keys don't work at all. So while working through the NetWare setup screen, you're unable to move anything up or down, and this limits how far you can get in the setup.

If I do "Default", I get stuck on the "Continue with installing server?", prompt, because "No" is the default selection. If I choose "Manual", I get hung up because the IDECD detection fails (probably because the CD is in use), and am unable to select the option to skip it.

Anyone got any solutions? Or do I need to file yet another bug?

Also, using the VT-x stuff will cause the VM to crash (Guru Meditation) when NetWare setup loads its LIBC.NLM and tries to check the disks.

[Kumba]

Looks like having Numlock on is the problem. Weird.

[michaln]

The Num Lock thing is likely unrelated to the other keyboard problems, but you can try it again once the next maintenance release comes out. It sounds like you found an easy workaround anyway.

Please open a ticket for the VT-x guru meditation. However, I'm sure you're aware that NetWare is not a supported guest, so don't expect a quick response.

[Kumba]

Yeah, I finally found the support matrix and saw that NW65 isn't supported. It boots the NW kernel, even after the setup gets hosed. Just there's no working SYS: volume to mount, so I don't know how much else of the OS is functional. I am trying different disk combos to see if I can force the setup to finish installing. It seems the driver detection fails on SATA and SCSI HDD's. Doing IDE now.

Edit: Need to use IDE disks only. The setup program detects those just fine. Gets hung up on SATA and SCSI (did not test SAS). Also, as mentioned in this forum thread: http://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?t=676

You need the fd32e.img file. Unfortunately, the .img format was deleted. But download the fd32e.exe file, and open it up in 7-Zip, then extract the fd32e.ima file, rename to fd32e.img, and it'll work when mounted as a floppy disk image. This avoids the int13 fatal error.

SYS: is formatting/copying files now. Have to see if I can get IPX loaded and eDirectory started up. Only running a trial copy, but that's all I need.

Whole point of this mess is to get IPX packet capture. There are no good, raw IPX pcap files out there on the net. I figure two eDirectory machines chatting over IPX/SPX, or worst-case, several MS-DOS VMs running DOOM2 over IPX LAN oughta make for some interesting pcap files.

[Kumba]

Works fine so far. It is slow, but that is probably a lack of access to VT-x on my Core2 quad. The numlock issue is not present on the server console, but I haven't tested utilities like DSREPAIR or NWCONFIG just yet.

Usual bugs occur with HTTPSTK getting loaded before other NLMs, so after install, edit SYS:\SYSTEM\STARTUP.NCF and move the "load HTTPSTK.NLM ..." line to be the very last line.

Other blurbs:
- If using NetWare bootloader (not DRDOS), create C:\NWSERVER\CONFIG.NW and add "-nl" as the first line to nix the splash screen.
- If you get synthetic timestamp errors after a new install, run DSREPAIR -A, Advanced Options, and then repair timestamps and declare a new epoch.

Has anyone at Oracle tried compiling NLMs for the guest additions?I think the only ones needed would be disk and network drivers.

[michaln]

We wouldn't have the first clue how to build NLMs I'm afraid. But I'm not sure what we'd need special disk and/or network drivers for? The whole point of emulating existing hardware is that guests already know how to work with it...

The Guest Additions basically provide enhancements for working with a VM's "console" (graphics, mouse, etc.) which isn't really an issue for a NetWare server I think.

[Kumba]

We wouldn't have the first clue how to build NLMs I'm afraid. But I'm not sure what we'd need special disk and/or network drivers for? The whole point of emulating existing hardware is that guests already know how to work with it...

The Guest Additions basically provide enhancements for working with a VM's "console" (graphics, mouse, etc.) which isn't really an issue for a NetWare server I think.

Me either on building NLM's. There's a few hacks and toolkits out there for doing cross-compiles for Linux (I once compiled sed to SED.NLM for kicks and giggles), but it is far from trivial, and I would be surprised if major issues wouldn't arise from larger projects under such a toolkit. Real NLM's were built using MetroWorks CodeWarrior in a special configuration I believe. I wouldn't even begin to know where to find that.

On the drivers themselves, wasn't aware. I thought the network/disk drivers gave additional enhancements. That's what VMWare's do if I am not mistaken. But yeah, NetWare doesn't really need a console 99.999% of the time. There is a bastardized X11 server available, but it's run via the Java 1.4 JRE that comes default with NW65, and it is *slow*. I don't think any guest addon can help that. Good thing is, you only need it when installing specific upgrades in NW, and those are rare.. Most people disable the thing as soon as a server is installed. A majority of server management is done via the Novell Remote Manager, which is still one of the sweetest pieces of software I've seen to date. You can control an entire NW server from the web with the thing.

[michaln]

FYI, NetWare 6.5 SP8 works fine in a VM with VT-x on my Core i7 box, but it fails miserably on an older Core 2 machine. Without VT-x it works on both.

What's the recommended RAM size for a NW 6.5 server? My VM seemed sluggish, but only for certain operations (especially the GUI). I have no experience with NetWare on physical machines (well, not since 3.12 or 4.x) so I don't know what the expected performance should be, what's normal and what's not.

[Kumba]

FYI, NetWare 6.5 SP8 works fine in a VM with VT-x on my Core i7 box, but it fails miserably on an older Core 2 machine. Without VT-x it works on both.

What's the recommended RAM size for a NW 6.5 server? My VM seemed sluggish, but only for certain operations (especially the GUI). I have no experience with NetWare on physical machines (well, not since 3.12 or 4.x) so I don't know what the expected performance should be, what's normal and what's not.

Interesting bit about the VT-x. I have a Core2 Quad (9660), and don't plan on upgrading for another two years at least. Bug in VBox's implementation for that specific processor?

The GUI has always been slow. It's Java 1.4.x. It is noticeably slower in the VM, but that's not too surprising, Java on top of an emulated graphics device. Most people turn it off after install anyways.

Open your SYS:\SYSTEM\AUTOEXEC.NCF file up (EDIT SYS:\SYSTEM\AUTOEXEC.NCF), find the line that loads HTTPSTK.NLM, and copy that entire line to the bottom of the file. That's the mini HTTP stack that runs the Novell Remote Manager, which is what most people use for managing an NW65 box. The load order is goofy, in a VM at least, and it gets loaded before other, required NLMs are loaded, so it won't work. After that, you can use https://<your server IP or DNS>:8009/ to manage the server. Licensing got changed, too. You are no longer licensed per server, but per user. NW's setup still prompts for a license file, and I'm not sure where that is hiding at (should be on the CD, but I haven't checked nor installed iManager for it).

Recommended RAM, 512MB minimum. It runs better if you do 1,024MB or higher. NetWare aggressively caches as much as it can into memory, so the more it has, the merrier it'll be. Other than that, if you got it installed, it's running. It's not the OS you mess with on the physical console too much (unlike Linux and Windows). Once you've installed it, made any needed adjustments, you generally lock it in a closet and leave it alone. Except for the random patches you'd apply if this were a live, production-use server. The performance comes from how fast clients can get at files stored on a share and such -- that's where a lot of tuning in NW servers goes. Not how fast the main console runs for the admin.

To really manage it for further testing, you'll need to install iManager to manage the eDirectory instance. You can also run a Windows guest and install Novell Client and see how fast logins go (but you're limited to two free users, 'admin' and one other, w/o a proper eDirectory license, though I don't think it'll actually count active users anymore, so as long as it isn't production, Novell ). You can test other features, like a database (It comes with MySQL 4.x), etc. Novell really turned it into a good competitor against Linux for small environments, but it gets outclassed quickly because of the lack of 64bits (PAE helps, but not by much), and the fact all NLMs are loaded into kernel space. Meaning the thing is like a Jenga tower -- one NLM falling out of place can knock the whole server down.

[michaln]

Yes, the VT-x problem on Core Duo is likely an implementation bug in VirtualBox. The VT-x support in the Core 2 CPUs is not that great to be honest, so a fair amount needs to be done in software. AMD-V is much better, and so is VT-x in the newer Core i3/5/7 CPUs.

I have a bunch of Core 2s as well as a some recent Core i7s. I can tell you that if you're interested in virtualization, the Core i7 is absolutely worth it. It's several times faster than the Core 2s when it comes to virtualization, both because it has a much faster memory subsystem and because the hardware virtualization support is much more complete (nested paging and unrestricted execution). Even a 2GHz Core i7 vs. a 2.4 GHz Core 2 is no contest, the i7 wins hands down.

Yes, I realize NetWare is not an OS where the admin is expected to spend much (or any, really) time in front of the console I've never actually been around Novell networks much since the NetWare 3.12/4.0 days, so seeing 6.5 was interesting. I didn't expect to see DR-DOS in there. But I was also surprised how much there was in terms of functionality - Apache, MySQL, Tomcat, DNS, LDAP, etc. etc.

[Kumba]

Yes, the VT-x problem on Core Duo is likely an implementation bug in VirtualBox. The VT-x support in the Core 2 CPUs is not that great to be honest, so a fair amount needs to be done in software. AMD-V is much better, and so is VT-x in the newer Core i3/5/7 CPUs.

I have a bunch of Core 2s as well as a some recent Core i7s. I can tell you that if you're interested in virtualization, the Core i7 is absolutely worth it. It's several times faster than the Core 2s when it comes to virtualization, both because it has a much faster memory subsystem and because the hardware virtualization support is much more complete (nested paging and unrestricted execution). Even a 2GHz Core i7 vs. a 2.4 GHz Core 2 is no contest, the i7 wins hands down.

Nice! Downside is, upgrading right now means new motherboard, new CPU, time to migrate the OS (Which is Windows, and Windows is never friendly to hardware migrations). All in time, though. I'll probably be on whatever Intel introduces after the i-Series.

Yes, I realize NetWare is not an OS where the admin is expected to spend much (or any, really) time in front of the console I've never actually been around Novell networks much since the NetWare 3.12/4.0 days, so seeing 6.5 was interesting. I didn't expect to see DR-DOS in there. But I was also surprised how much there was in terms of functionality - Apache, MySQL, Tomcat, DNS, LDAP, etc. etc.

They were basically trying to turn it into a UNIX derivative. Look closely at the startup messages and you'll see they use a FreeBSD-derived LIBC.NLM. It also comes with a bash shell, some iManager components are bundled in RPMs, etc. I referred to it as the "Frankenstein OS" for a reason, because they were emulating or adding support for so many different things, all in one package.

Oh, and eDirectory still has capabilities that Active Directory doesn't have just yet. That's probably what saddens me the most about Novell's demise, is eDirectory's loss of marketshare. It's like taking two steps back in terms of LDAP/X.500-based directory management.

[Kumba]

Well, it looks like Oracle botched up the SSO integration with Trac, so I cannot log into the ticketing system and update a few bugs.

Specific to NetWare, however, is that I upgraded my motherboard to an Intel DX58SO and an i7-960, and enabling VT-x works for the NetWare Guest now. But ONLY on 4.0.16. 4.1.x is still dead to me on two of my guests. Still likely the ICH chipset emulation. Someone really needs to fix that.

Ticket:
https://www.virtualbox.org/ticket/9422